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talk to the frog / Breeding / breeding two different species
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asdfsd


# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 20:46


i was just wondering, i have a white's tree frog, would i be able to breed it with a gray tree frog? if not, why is this? Has anyone tried it before???

any answers would be helpful
Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
2241 posts

# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 20:49 · Edited by: Whitney


No. You wouldn't. Animals mate to increase the species and pass on their genes. The two wouldnt even be interested in each other, and whats worse, if ou put them together your Gray might end up as lunch.
...Sheesh!
Why would you want to anyway?


<-- Say, can I have some of your purple berries? <--
DeFrEaTs
Member
501 posts
501 posts

# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 20:59


Hehe, unfortunately it won't work, but I admitt, it would be so much fun if you could, the possibilities of cross-breeds would be endless, red eyes with darts! image that? hehe


-=I do my best t help, but remember, no-one is always right. Never believe anything 100%=-
Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
2241 posts

# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 21:00



A long legged dart with huge eyes...sounds creepy!


<-- Say, can I have some of your purple berries? <--
Moe


# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 21:46 · Edited by: Moe


more likely to eat it, than breed it =)

M.N
DeFrEaTs
Member
501 posts
501 posts

# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 21:52


lol, or a stripy and spotted red-eye... maybe nature was right not to let things cros-breed like that

I can't even image what a bullfrog and reed frog could create!


-=I do my best t help, but remember, no-one is always right. Never believe anything 100%=-
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 22:40


If you tried to breed with a dog, would it work? No. Same thing between different frogs.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Velociraptor
Member
766 posts
766 posts

# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 23:14 · Edited by: Velociraptor


I've seen hairless dogs a few times and thought "Aren't they the result of breeding a dog with a frog ?" :P


Life moves pretty fast, if you don't stop and look around every once in a while, you could miss it.
Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 4 Nov 2003 23:22


Usually . . . Unless your talking about toads or some other special examples. Toads are pretty flexible.
Thing's like Woodhouse Toads get it on with other species (of Toads) and produce fertile hybrids. Of course not all toads are good mixes. Things like Oak Toads and Marine Toads don't mix.

With related frogs you can get away with it sometimes.

Moe


# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 03:02


Yea, but i personally believe its best not to introduce new hybrids. The gene pool in some sp is bad enough already.

M.N
tth_lee
Member
554 posts
554 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 03:47


I know that green tree frogs (hyla cinerea) and barking tree frogs (hyla gratiosa) hybridize in the wild. That's been well documented. But I'm actually curious about this whole hybridizing thing - what makes it possible for some frogs to hybridize and not for others? Does it only have to do with selection or does it have to do with genetics as well? I've always wondered this, so if anyone can explain it I'd appreciate it.

Thomas


Tom
1.0.0 Horned frog | Ceratophrys cranwelli
0.0.1 Golden fantail | Carassius auratus
1.1.0 Chinese fire-bellied newt | Cynops orientalis
1.0.0 Betta fish Betta splendens
My collection is small, but less is more :-
x5dmr
Member
71 posts
71 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 05:31


one problem is that the male or female of the oppisite species wouldn't "go" for eachother. you may see a male of one species on a female of another in the wild, but that is because it is breeding season and then get confused sometimes (but it generally doesn't work out). another problem is that, although the auditory make up of most frogs is about the same, then still prefer the "tunes" of the their own species. there was an article in the science section in the New York times. Hybridizing does happen though, and i wish there was more research on the subject, because if i could breed my greys and barkers together that would be interesting

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 05:51


Yeah, sometimes very similar species can breed with eachother, but, to keep this simple, it's not gonna happen between a White's and a Grey.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 06:10


Well I'm doing a little research on it and still a little confused myself.

Some might be flexibility in the genome. Like haveing roughly the same developmental genes or something. Nothing incompatable metabolism wise. Close relatives are good canidates although sometimes farther relatives can like Sonoran Desert Toads and Woodhouse Toads (Woodhouse seems to be very compatable).

Remember selection can be sexual too. So it is even possible another species is "sexier" then your own if it has prefered stuff like a deeper call. This is rare, but there is a fish example. The hybrids may fail to develop at a bunch of stages, develop but be sterile (mules), be fertile but selected against, or be = or better then the parent species.

The really interesting thing is that for plants hybrids can be superior or enter new niches and become new species (ex. sunflower family). Only some are though. For the Arizona X Woodhouse Toad crosses it appears they are = to the parents in fitness. Traditionally a new species isn't considered for animals unless the species becomes clonal as far as I can tell.

Yes, hybrid. is a danger to keeping small populations of species "pure". Arizona Toads in some areas are basically being mixed with the expanding Woodhouse. Yosemite Toads are mixing with "California" Toads. A benefit of hybrids is that yuo put new genes into a population though.

Ben_C
Member
92 posts
92 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 14:19


tth_lee,
A reason some frogs can hybridize and others not has to do both w/ genetics and selection (a little tough to differentiate between the two in this context). Sister species can frequently hybridize due to lack of selection on the genes 'essential' for day to day activities (respiration, metabolism, etc.) as these functions are highly conserved evolutionarily. A reason a lot of frogs can NOT hybridize is due to the lack of conservation in the genes that are required for sex determination. Look it up in an intro to herpetology textbook and you'll see what i mean. Sex determination mechanisms (i.e. temperature dependant, y-chromosome dependant) have evolved independantly several times in Hylidae alone! The reason that i've heard for this is this: Say you are a frog of type x, with fitness w and your fitness is significantly higher than the rest of the population (and so are your offspring). The "best" way to maintain this higher w is to speciate, right? Of course, this is a simplified example that could take millions of years, but you get what I'm saying...mutations to the sex determination mechanisms are common because they are the absolute best way to speciate.
Other reasons that frogs can hybridize are this: imagine an ancestral species of treefrog, species y. They are happy in their forest some 10^6 years ago. There is a flood which splits their forest in two with a river. Now these two populations are separated (no migration of genes between them). Due to random mutation (drift) these species may come to differ morphologically. Say one group is sexually selected for the males to have blue eyes and the other has the wild type green eyes. If some hairless primate, say human, captures some of population a and some of population b and introduces them to eachother in a glass box, they *may* be able to reproduce because drift has not had time to act on their reproductive genes...that was a very crappy explanation, I'm sure, but if somebody really wants me to go into more detail you should e-mail me: bkc5@utah.edu so i don't hog up all the screen space.
Sexual selection, as brian said, is also a good speciation mechanism which may/may not be correlated with reproductive genes so it may or may not allow hybrids between two sister species who have different sexual selected traits.
basically, there isn't one answer to the question "why can't all species intermix?" anyway, i've typed too much already
hope this helps,
B


~~**Ben**~~ If at first you don't succeed, manipulate the data until p<.05
Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
2241 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 16:40


you just brought back every college zoology class i've ever attended.


<-- Say, can I have some of your purple berries? <--
Ben_C
Member
92 posts
92 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 17:08


Whitney,
...sorry?

~~**Ben**~~ If at first you don't succeed, manipulate the data until p<.05 (I know, I know...I'm a dork...)


~~**Ben**~~ If at first you don't succeed, manipulate the data until p<.05
asdfsd


# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 17:12


i see

i was just wondering, because i had a dream about it. it was wierd, when the were breeding, the whites turned a glowy blue color, and the gray one was teal. They're my two favorite frogs i've ever owned, and i just thought it'd be cool to try. it'd be neat to see hundreds of blue gray tree frogs that were obese, but it might not work out like that. about the eating, my whites is a male, so they gray would be bigger mostly likely. but my first gray tree frog i had was eaten by a cuban tree frog about 3 times his size.

***********************
tell me this. how big do cuban tree frogs normally get? i got one from the pet store that when i was about 10, took up the biggest part of my long ways. it was a little over 6 inches and about 2 1/2 wide.
Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
2241 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 17:20 · Edited by: Whitney



Ben C, Love the sig!!!


<-- Say, can I have some of your purple berries? <--
Frogbert
Moderator
2424 posts
2424 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 18:20


Ben C and Brian and others - The degrees of depth in this discussion is refreshing. It really spans the whole gamut. I personally would love to see more educated answers like some of the ones in this thread on the forum. It is always nice when someone shares what he or she have learned or researched.

It is my opinion that length of a post should not be a regulator when providing scientific, husbandry, or other concise data about a subject. This is an area that we need educated/knowledgeable people to dedicate lengthy responses.

Too often people want a quick answer, which is not often enough to actually learn anything or enough data to make an educated decision. While in an emergency quick answers like "Take you frog to the vet" is appropriate, I find it that educating remarks following said statement can be highly beneficial

I know in the past some of my responses have been long (including this one) and have heard the " didn't have time to read the whole thing" response followed by repeating what I had written but in a different way. Or a person not reading something carefully enough to fully comprehend and following with a rebuttal that doesn't even apply.

In my opinion it is always important to read and read something before posting. That way you comprehend better what is written. Kudos to those who take the time to lie out what they know/learned in a concise and well-written manner. Kudos also to those who reply with quick responses when they are short on time but long on experience.


"Lead a life of purpose, Kindness being the first." ME

"The life of the individual has meaning only in so far as it aids in the making the life of every living thing nobeler and more beautiful" Albert Einstein
yellowboy
Member
438 posts
438 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 19:55


i was under the impression that frogs within the same genus "could" interbreed, as far as genteic similarities for example in a test tube a cross could be made, but the behavioral aspect prevented this alot...the example with the woodhouses and the fowleri are in the same genus

Ben_C
Member
92 posts
92 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 20:02


Yellowboy,
The problem w/ frogs in the same genus interbreeding is that a lot of current genera are based on morphological traits. Although this often times is synonymous w/ genetic relatedness, it's not always the case. So, from what i understand, a lot of species within genera can interbreed if "forced to" (as you mentioned above), but it's what happens all the time...


~~**Ben**~~ If at first you don't succeed, manipulate the data until p<.05
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 5 Nov 2003 21:20


I am bad at the didn't have time to read everything and then posting my input thing. But that isn't because the posts were to long, just because I seriously didn't have time to read it all but it is a thread that I feel I should input on.

Keep the educated answers coming folks. Replies like "you just shouldn't/should do that." Don't sink in the same way as a nice complete answer.


We can never go back to the way it was...
Anonymous


# Posted: 14 Nov 2003 04:41


Hello Frog People!

I was wondering the same thing. I am a new frog owner and have 2. One is a Spotted Chorus Frog and the other a Green Tree Frog. I though, how cool would it be to have babies! I see now that is not possible. Does any one know if they are compatible? They seem to be okay together but they sort of ignore one another. I have had the Spotted Chorus Frog for a little while and just got the Green Tree Frog last week. They are not going to eat each other, are they? My Spotted loves to hunt anything that moves. He tried to bite my finger when I was cleaning his cage and has actually taken to chasing the Green Tree Frog. What is that about? They are so cute with their little personalities! [/b][b][b][/b][i][/i][u][/u]
Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 14 Nov 2003 05:30


It's not just genus, but how close they are genetically as well as how compatable they are. Remember species and genus are just assignments.

If you want a different example for the toads, the Sonoran Desert Toad and Woodhouse's can interbreed (in the wild) and they've been seperate species for at least 6 million years. Some toads in Africa and South America can interbeed in a lab and they've been seperate for potentially 65 mya or whenever Africa broke away from South America.

I think chorus frogs are too different to breed with a green unless you did the test tube thing and it would probably still abort at some stage.

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 15 Nov 2003 08:21


Anonymous, no they can't be housed together! If one frog is ever chasing the other, that's really stressful to the frog being chased. Also, before you introduce one frog to another the new frog should be quarantined about 3 months and all frogs should have fecals done to avoid parasites being interchanged. In general, no two frog species should be kept together. There may be exceptions for very, very large tanks with compatible species (not yours) and very experienced keepers, but as a general rule tanks should be for individual species alone.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
mike
Member
31 posts
31 posts

# Posted: 16 Nov 2003 21:08 · Edited by: mike


haven't you ever heard of that song by loverboy? "pig and elephant dna just won't splice!"


signature: my avatar looks like a bunch of eyeballs...for now...
Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 16 Nov 2003 22:20


Glad I wasn't the only one thinking of that song.

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 17 Nov 2003 01:34


Haha, you guys are hilarious.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
ginevive
Member
989 posts
989 posts

# Posted: 24 Nov 2003 18:16 · Edited by: ginevive


This is a very interesting thread.
I know that it is possible to inerbreed ornate horned frogs and surinam horned frogs. The resulting offspring is called the Fantasy Frog. I am not sure if the offspring is fertile or not.
The breeding is done artificially, in laboratories. I doubt that these species would interbreed, much less even encounter one another, in nature.
Personally, I see no reason to meddle with frog genetics in this way. There are already dwindling numbers of frogs in the wild, and any breeding efforts, in my opinion, should be geared toward preserving the species we have already discovered. I know, and admit, that it would be fun to create awesome new strains of frog. But I really don't see any useful, nature-helping reason to actually do it. But it is fun to dream!


-JEN- :)
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