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talk to the frog / Help / GTF help.. I think they're sick?
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Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
2241 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 03:36


That was well said, and I respect where you are coming from completly. I don't think that you meant to offend anyone, and itis possible that some here got offended at just the mere possibility of you offending one of our own, namely Beck. If you were to stick around, which I hope you do, you would see that we all jump to defend our own, and thats because we have been through a lot as a group. That said, I am pleased to see that you didnt take the "everybody is ganging up on me, I'm leaving" approach. That says alot about you as a person, and I really believe that you will make a great herper.
Also, we all know that information will always differ, as our "hobby" is far from an exact science. BUT in my experience, those who have been in the trenches with 50 animals to feed and 5 dollars in their pockets and a vet 67 miles away are the best by far to glean from. We all here have each been through our share of highs and lows, but still reach out to share with others seeking help. I respect your stance about information differing, and not that I'm saying that we are perfect, but all of us here will go to the ends of the earth to help a fellow herper, even if its just to offer a shoulder to lean on. I've made many calls to various zoos and vets on behalf of those here, those that I know, and those that I dont. We all respect each other in that we all had to start out someplace and in those first years, we made our share of mistakes. Becki will tell you(if she recalls) how I thought that I could do no wrong when I first came to the original forum, but after a while, I softend up a bit. We all want to help, and we love to offer our opinions. Yes, they will differ, but as with life, at the end of the day its up to you to make a choice about which will have value and which to ignore. That can be done with a simple "Well thanks guys for the advise, I'm going to read everything over and keep you all updated."
Everyone here has thier own distinct personality, so try not to take it personaly. We dont mean to "talk down" to people, thats just how some of us are. No fluff, just the bare bones answer. If you stay, please remember that!!! We all want you to stay, as we share a few very important things, more than I think anyone realizes. Now, I think that we should bury this hatchet, and continue on.I am thrilled that the black blotches are gone and that you decided to continue sans fish. Keep us updated, and please feel free to come back anytime. Jut remember that we over at this forum:
1.)Dont need our egos stroked. We dont ask for that nor do we expect it.
2.)Dont think that we know it all. Far from it. If I though I was the frog expert, I'd write a few books, start a help line and be a millionare.
3.)Take this thing VERY VERY VERY seriously. We will get angry if you ever appear to be nonchalant about an incorrect aspect of your captives care. For example, "They'd better get used to it."
4.)Are people too. Sometimes we can have a bad day and be a little snippy. Nothing personal.
5.)Most importantly, WE JUST WANT TO HELP. We pride ourselves on being a "beef-free" environment. We just like to talk herps and make a joke here and there. If there is ever a problem, both parties should try to resolve it without a big blow out.

I hope that you decide that all is well and that this is a pretty great place to be.


<-- Say, can I have some of your purple berries? <--
becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 04:08 · Edited by: becki


Chesireycat, I do not want anyone to ever feel they are unwelcome here, especially not on my account. That is one of the very reasons this forum was started was for everyone to have a welcomed, happy, honest, comfy place to share experiences with one another. I would like to, for one - clarify a few things, and for two - offer a truce.
As I said before, this is the best place to be to learn and share about frogs and I want everyone who comes here to have their share of that.
I never said you mistreated your frogs.
I never put you down for not knowing a particular bit of information.
I did say that experimentations on an animal for a person to learn from is inhumane treatment and I stand by that. If you honestly were not aware of the risks of medicating your frogs and had every intention to help them before you came here - in my book, that's an honest mistake. If you now leave here and some unknown ailment appears and you again self medicate them - in my book, that is mistreatment.
I said in my original post that shedding is commonly mistaken as an illness the first time it is seen - not that I expected you to already know that. You can look through some old posts here where I freely admitted - or ask some of the folks from Kingsnake where I posted about it - that the first time I saw it, I was on the phone with the vet freaking out that something horrible was wrong with my frog! I'm not so holier than thou that I don't remember being a newbie and not knowing "basic" things myself and stuff comes up all the time that I didn't know and I'm eager to learn all that I can.
I did try to address, based on what info you provided, what I thought could be wrong. I identified anything that I could from what you stated that was out of wack with the set up and could be causing a problem.
The low humidity was one of those stabs in the dark - as you didn't mention humidity and if it is too low, especially during shedding, it causes the skin to be too dry and can cause the new underlying skin to tear leaving an abrasion. I also said it could be from bumping against something sharp in the tank. I didn't just jump off on some rampage about how great I am and how bad you are.
I tried to take my time and explain why I thought each thing. I also said that, in my 2nd post, I took it offensively but I would give the benefit of the doubt that you didn't intend it that way. And I then went out of my way to "prove" myself to you - not because I feel like I need to for my benefit but because you were making such a point of not knowing what you can trust. I was trying to impress upon you my background so you would recognize that I was not some uninformed person.
As you have just stated, you still feel like you have no answers to your questions. I will try to offer the best explanation I can.
I can't tell you for sure what exactly caused the black spots on your frogs. I may have been able to speculate more if I could have seen them but it's impossible to diagnose a "black spot". It could have been nothing more than a scratch over which a scab covered. Frogs will often take quite some time, even with the treatment of Neosporin, to heal from a cut. If they bumped something extremely hard, the underlying tissue could be bruised as well as cut, giving it an even more discolored appearance and taking even longer to heal. If it were bacterial or fungal - those specific pathogens would have to be treated for the ares to heal. I can't say if the medications you were using could have accomplished that or not - that is a possibility as well.
I do remember you asking why Silvadene is better and it's simply because ya know how the Neosporin is really gooey and gets smeared around real easy and can even be totally wiped off? Well, Silvadene is a much thicker, heavier consistency than Neosporin so it stays where you put it - in turn treating the area more causing faster healing.
As for the flourescent black lights, they are not the same as the nocturnal heat lights. I can't break down the specific scientifics to it but there is something in the flouro black light that is harmful to their eyes. The nocturnal heat lights are the same as the day heat lights - some brands coat the clear glass to make it a different shade of color of light and some simply use different colored glass.
As far as humidity, 72% is a bit high for a GTF. If you were experiencing a fungal problem, this could be related to high humidity. The increased dampness in the warmth is the perfect breeding grounds for all types of pathogens to multiply in. When keeping species which require humidity this high, you must be sure to have good ventilation in your set ups to prevent problems. I would again advise that you get a humidity guage inside the tank and you may find that you can decrease your misting and still maintain the tank at 40-50% humidity which is a comfortable and adequate range for them.
As far as the tank size, I think you will soon see that they will make themselves quite comfortable in their new home, be happy with it and thank you for it. As far as the fish, that's your decision. I would highly recommend that you test your water quality frequently. If you'd like some in depth information about water quality and how to maintain it, etc, please e-mail me and I can forward you some articles I have saved on the topic.
Hope this helps.
Becki
beckinelson@webtv.net

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 05:07


Thanks for understanding, Whit. I wrote out a long response and erased it by mistake, so I'll just try to remember what I can. I really never meant to offend anyone, but I'm guilty of getting pissy and defensive because I'm not used to people talking to me like that. I really try hard to take care of my frogs and I'll do what I can to keep them in good shape.
The reason I said that they better get used to it is because I know where all the frogs came from and that the environment I'm keeping for them is so close to their own in temperature and humidity that it'd be ridiculous to tune it further. I'm spoilt in the sense that I'm very particular to having a high humidity and I know that theirs isn't low at all.
Again, thank you, and I'm very glad you all take frogs very seriously. When I talk to someone for a while and begin to trust their advice, I'll have a different attitude, but I hope everyone understands that with all the crap I've read about these things it's hard to trust strangers. Like I said, I was recommended a 10 gallon first and had to learn from experience that it was certainly not enough. I've also been told it would be absolutely fine to keep my cuban in with my green tree frogs, and I've seen even breeders do it, but I'd never be that foolish.
Well, I'll be back and I'll try to be more understanding when people take a questionable tone because they don't always mean it that way and they're probably honestly worried. Thanks for bringing that to light.
Oh, and by the way, avec les poissons... the fish will stay for now, lol. I want to see if I can keep this mini-biosphere going. I'll be careful though.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 05:08


If I came off snooty in any way, I appologize. We are really glad to have you here. I hope you choose to stay and learn with the rest of us. And if you ever have trouble finding any information, feel free to give me a holler and I will do the best of my abilities to help you find it.


We can never go back to the way it was...
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 05:10


and i'm more than more than more than more than happy to bury the hatchet


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 05:20


as long as its not in anyones heads.


We can never go back to the way it was...
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 05:26


Thank you guys, this seriously means a lot to me. Although I didn't take it *that* bad, Becki, I guess it was all one big misunderstanding.

Yeah, I think the black spots were a fungal infection and it could be due to the humidity being so high, but although I know I could lower it I'm worried about them being uncomfortable. I know the Daytona humidity is in the upper 60s and lower 70s most of the year, and higher in the summer, and in another tank I have two other GTFs which are from the Okechobee area and that humidity is probably 70s-80s to maybe low 90s in the summers. I don't know which way to take it then... The water is all new though, and I took out the bigger fish (which were disruptive to the other fish, anyway) and stopped putting in algae food pellets that dirtied the water and *could have* helped cause the infection. Also, I used malachite green because I found a few websites, 6 or 7, that recommended it on tree frogs when they had infections that were described as "grey or black" discolorations, especially over cuts and scratches. I freaked because I read about mucor and it said they develop a sticky film, have discolorations, etc. and I didn't think a frog could actually shed for a few days. It only had the sticky stuff on the third day and that's when I freaked.. along with everything else.

Anyway, thanks for the info and sorry about all of this..


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
2241 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 13:00


It's more than alright. We are all quilty here of jumping the gun a bit. I'm interested to know more about your enclosure, though. What kind of fish do you have? I had small rosies in a WTF tank a long while back, but took them out due to various issues, like water quality and the fact that when they grew, they scared the hell out of the frogs and they wouldnt even touch the water. So if you have Greens in there, those must be some brave froggies, as my Greens are scared of my Screensaver!!


<-- Say, can I have some of your purple berries? <--
becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 17:07


Just glad we can begin again on the right foot. Glad to hear the frogs are doing better, and please keep us posted as to how they continue to get along.
Happy frogging!
Becki

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 20:06


Thanks everyone

Anyway, I have fish in my GTF tank and with my Cuban TF (I only have one of those). In my GTF tank, I have about a dozen and a half little guppies. I had less, but every once in a while you find another baby or two. I have two other fish that are gold with black on them, they resemble a goldfish but they're tropical fish and smaller than most feeder goldfish. I have a snail in there and two African dwarf frogs. It sounds like a lot, but the guppies are so tiny that there's a ton of swimming space for them, plus, they're usually hiding behind the driftwoods or under stuff. And the frogs don't mind them. The first day I got the fish, however, the frogs hadn't eaten in 2 days (and I didn't even feed them a lot the last time) because I had just moved back home and thought that a petstore by my house would carry them, which turned out being closed. Anyway, the frogs wanted to eat my fish. And not even the guppies (I didn't have those then), they went after the big ones (they went after some larger tetras, the goldish fish, and some large dania). Well, I fed them very well after that and I guess they got used to the movement in the water and never bothered again. However, when I figured the dania were way too aggressive (and I used to have some crayfish in there that I decided a while back were too aggressive) I moved them into the Cuban's tank where there are three dania and two crayfish, and a tadpole I rescued from a pool. I had rescued more, but they disappeared here and there, but this one is huge now. I'm guessing it's a marine toad. Well, that's my enclosure. I also have an enclosure that's half water for my squirrel tree frogs, but since I read and re-read that they use temporary ponds, I'm not putting a single fishy in that one. I'll try to get some pics soon.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 21:00


I'm really surprized that Cuban hasn't feasted upon the fish and all. They are brave little buggers and will eat anything that will fit into their mouth! (If you've seen my post at all titles "Another attack" you'll read that I have even jumped by a Cuban LOL) How long have you had them in the tank with the frog? Maybe he/she just isn't into seafood LOL

By the way, the little gold colored fish that you mentioned, with the black spots... could they perhaps be comets or even mollys?

Keep an eye on that tadpole, Cubans will eat other frog and frog spawn. (They are devouring Floridas native frogs at a very rappid rate)


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 4 Jun 2003 22:18


Yeah, I'm surprised, too. Actually, it's the the frog of mine that eats the least. It's a male, so he's smaller than a female should be and shouldn't eat as much, but he doesn't even look at the fish. He's really quite tame.

Um, the fish are smaller than comets can get (they're full grown) and larger than mollys. They're a very light gold color. I'll try to find out what they're called when I go to Pet Supermarket again, but I rarely go there. It's the first Cuban I know that doesn't love seafood

I will watch the tadpole carefully and as soon as the front legs start sprouting I'll remove it. It doesn't even have back legs yet, but it's bigger everyday. I know about the Cubans eating Florida's frogs and that's why I HAD to catch it. I really didn't have room for it when I did, but I couldn't leave it in the wild. It's quite sad. The same goes for the Bufo Marinus... they suck. Dogs get sick and I cringe when I think of what they survive on. Poor animals...


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 5 Jun 2003 07:13


I work at a pet supermarket. Although I start a new job making over double what I am making there on monday. I am going to stay on as part timer there for now on weekends and 1-2 days a week till I save enough to buy my own car again. Tired of having to make sure no one else needs the truck or jeep.


We can never go back to the way it was...
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 5 Jun 2003 07:40


That's cool. I was going to try to get a job at a PetSmart in Daytona. They really weren't bad with the animals, there. What other kind of job are you doing now?


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 5 Jun 2003 07:51 · Edited by: Charlie


I got called at 9:30 am to go do the final paperwork to start a job for a electrical company a few blocks from my house. I found out that the third key at the pet shops boyfriend works at the company I am joining on monday. still gonna keep the old job for a while for the car and to take advantage of my discount a bit too when i get a couple of checks in. as soon as I get what I need though I'm outta there. the way next week is set up I work the weekdays as an electrician 7-3 and on wed I go home get cleaned up and go into the pet store for a few hours and work at the pet store on sat and sun too. I know its a full boat but I really want a car and hopefully I can get it before I burn out to bad working 7 days a week again. 60 hours a week aint to bad though. its when I get around 80+ that I start hurtin a bit. but the money only gets better the harder you work.


We can never go back to the way it was...
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 6 Jun 2003 00:55


damn, that is a lot of work. i remember when i tried to study and work full time and burned out. 60 hours can be doable, but take it in stride and keep your health first! well, what are you going to do with the electric company? i'm sure you'll learn a lot and that sure is great


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 6 Jun 2003 03:51


2nd. electrician, they didnt have any openings for lead elec's right now. But thats what I am capable of. Been doing electric for about 5 years on my own now. Before that I was doing with family business' till I had opened my own.

60 isnt bad, thats about normal stride for the last 3-4 years. It's only gonna be hard because I took a 6 month break from working.


We can never go back to the way it was...
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 7 Jun 2003 05:06


well, i think it will be hard, regardless, but that doesn't mean it's not doable. i mean, especially if you have a goal. if you know you need money for a car, working all you can thinking of that one thing can be easy, mentally. it'll still be hard work. but at least it seems like it's something you enjoy. that always makes time fly by.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 7 Jun 2003 09:13


the trick is to just keep moving the entire time and dont sit down until you get in the car to get home. You wont wanna get up. That's my biggest problem wether I work 20 or 80 hours a week. I am a procrastinator and when I stopp I dont want to start again. But if I just keep on trucking the whole time it flies by.


We can never go back to the way it was...
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 7 Jun 2003 10:19


Definitely!


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
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