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talk to the frog / Help / GTF help.. I think they're sick?
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cheshireycat
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3789 posts

# Posted: 31 May 2003 07:13



I posted this elsewhere, but I'm also posting here in hopes of more responses. I'm really in need of info.

Posted: May 31, 2003 06:53:08
Quote Edit



I'm only going to post here because I'd like to respond about something, but I'll post this elsewhere also, since I'm really freaked out about my green tree frogs (GTF). I'm freaked as hell, so this will be long!

I have an adult male GTF which is also doing the "hiccup" thing and the "stretchy-walky" thing. I know he is sick, though. Although he's acting normal (other than filling up with air, and pushing it out with his legs on one side, then the next, and stretching his legs strangely.. and opening his mouth quite a lot), he has black blotches on his face. One of my females has had them on her back for a week (I thought nothing of it because she had scratches there from before), but she hasn't exhibited any other symptoms. Anyway, he's had the blotches for at least two days and has been acting funny with the whole hiccup/stretchy thing for three days now. Today, I saw him removing a thick, white, slimy film off of him. I'm terrified. I also have a third female in the tank who hasn't had any symptoms.

Yesterday, I put hydrogen peroxide on the male's face (on the black marks) with a Q-tip and they seemed to stay the same or even get worse. After a few minutes, I put him in a malachite green solution. I then applied un-diluted (.075%, if I remember correctly) malachite green on the markings and within an hour they had drastically reduced. I thought he'd be better today, but I caught him acting funny again, plus he now has that slimy coating. The sick female's black markings on her back got worse, but I put malachite green on them both today. I also applied neosporin on the markings.

My questions are:

1) Does anyone know what this is?

2) Should I find a special vet, or can I cure this myself?


Well, thanks in advance for anyone's help or effort. Whew!

cheshireycat
Member

2 posts

Posted: May 31, 2003 06:57:08
Quote Edit

After reading the shedding info on CarrieBean's prior post, I suppose my male could be shedding. I had thought that's what it was the first time it happened, or that he ate WAY too much (absolutely gorged himself stuffed on crickets!), but three days later he really worried me. Also, the mucus stuff was all over his hind legs and some of his belly. Even if this is shedding, he seems quite sick to me.




- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 31 May 2003 07:19


Also, for more info.. I have them in a half-aquarium 15-gallon in hopes that they'll breed. Some of the fish (yes, fishies in there, too) came up with ick, but I'm treating it very successfully with the malachite green. I did have some moss in there which could have held considerable bacteria or fungus which I removed. I handle my frogs frequently, maybe every other day, mostly for feeding. However, I put in two kinds of drops to stimulate their immune systems, slime coating, and add electrolytes into the water. I change the water very regularly and use a carbon filter.

Also, a simple question. What's the deal with black lights? Do they provide adequate UVA and UVB radiation for diurnal species? Are there any drawbacks to black light usage? Does anyone know how much UVB a black light would produce versus UVB reptile lights, and if the UVB radiation would last more than 6 months, unlike the other ones? Sorry if I sound like a nerd, lol...


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 31 May 2003 09:36


Well first off, it sounds like you are medicating before you know what the problem is. The hicuppy thing with the bloating and opening and closing of the mouth and the stretchy walky thing with the slime coating is just shedding. The slime is his old skin, and all the little quirks hes showing is just him wiggling out of the old skin.

Fish aren't always the best idea in a frogs tank. Unless you have really really good filtration. The buildup of fish waste can make your frogs sick. And causes the need for tank breakdown and cleaning more often in my opinion.

As for blacklights. Blacklights have a limited lifespan of about 6 months if I remember correctly.

As for breeding. If you want them to breed it would be perferable to have them in a rain chamber and withhold from handling them so much. Gorge them before you put them in the chamber. Cause if they decide to try, they wont feed in amplexus.

Now thats the best of my knowledge with out doing a research stint, which I am totally not in the mood for I guess.

But there are a few people on here who could go more into depth on breeding frogs.


We can never go back to the way it was...
Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 31 May 2003 14:11


I have heard black lights are harmful to herps and should be avoided. Get a reptile brand black light or red light. I use red lights.


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 31 May 2003 16:33 · Edited by: becki


Hello and welcome to the forum! Very good to have you!

Okay, there are a few problems with your set up and while I'm not convinced by your description here that they are ill - the male definitely is simply shedding - but you need to make some changes to the set up or they will likely become ill.

A 15 is too small for 3 GTF, you need at least 25 gallons for 3. Each frog needs it's own adequate living space. Overcrowding can lead to stress for many different reasons - all which will result in a sick frog.

Keeping them with fish is not a good idea at all - the fish should be in one tank and the frogs in another.

It also sounds like they could be having some difficulties with shedding which can happen if conditions are too dry and the humidity is too low. They can actually cause tears in the skin - most commonly around the corners of the mouth - from shedding without proper moisture. How often are you misting your tank and what is the humidity level?

You need to be very aware that improper treatment or even proper but unnecessary treatments can be very detremental to frogs. They can stress very easily and stress causes weakened immune systems making them more likely to become ill, needless to say that a frog can die from nothing more than stress alone. If a frog has an open sore - say a scratch from something in the tank - you first of all need to find out what the source of the problem is in the tank and remove it. Check all wood and plastic pieces for rough edges, etc. Then you can clean the wound with diluted hydrogen peroxide - add 1/2 H2O2 and 1/2 treated water - and then rinse the area with treated water before applying Neosporin or Silvadene to the area. If you don't see some improvement over time with this then you need to seek the help of a vet. But please do not continue to treat your frogs for unknown illnesses. You need to identify the problem to know how to properly treat it otherwise you're asking for many more problems than you've started out with.

As for the blacklight, use only nocturnal heat lights for night lighting/heat source as the regular black lights are harmful for your frogs.

And as far as breeding, I would advise that you do alot more research about your frogs before you even attempt this. I'm not at all trying to sound harsh, and really do want to help, but if you weren't familiar with shedding - which is very common with beginners - as well as proper tank size, not mixing species, etc., you need to do alot more research and have more experience with them before you venture into breeding.

I'll include a link to my website where you may want to read the GTF page as well as the husbandry page. This will give you some species info as well as basic care and set up needs. Feel free to ask any other questions you may have. Hope this helps!
Becki
www.froggie.info

tree frog
Member
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134 posts

# Posted: 31 May 2003 17:53


you know alot about frogs becki


devon
becki
Moderator
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1262 posts

# Posted: 31 May 2003 20:38


Thanks for the compliment Devon, but I still have alot more to learn....and most all of what I do know came from helpful fellow froggers willing to share their knowledge - just trying to return the favor.
Becki

Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 1 Jun 2003 04:52


yeah, becki is the shizznit sometimes. She always has a way to put it that sounds good. I think I tend to be random and blunt a lot of the times. Just cant help it its the way my thoughts come out. It's all a learning process. I try to absorb everything I hear. And you guys are all good for hooking it up with helpfull info.


We can never go back to the way it was...
Heather
Moderator
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7561 posts

# Posted: 1 Jun 2003 06:39


Hee hee well at least the toughts come out Wes


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 1 Jun 2003 08:44


OK, well.. I have a lot of responses (I'm going to respond to EVERYTHING, because there are a lot of different responses and I'd appreciate feedback), I'll try to stay mostly in order. Although I knew that the strange movements indicated shedding, I didn't know it could last three days. I had also never read anything about it being a slimy coating that came off. Only that they eat it and it's "something you'll rarely see" since they're nocturnal. I freaked out because I had been reading stuff on mucor and frog diseases in general and a few seemed to include those "symptoms." However, I really couldn't find much information on specific illnesses and their breakdowns, so my best bet was to ask around.
I was medicating because the black markings seemed to indicate some kind of fungal infection, according to all the websites on frog illnesses I looked through (which is everything Google had to offer). Most places said to use H2O2, malachite green, or even mercurochrome, and some said to bathe the frog in it while others said to apply it topically with a brush. The malachite green has actually been working great, so I see no problems with using it until the black marks disappear. The black marks appeared on my female on some scratches she had on her back because she chased a fish underwater the first day they were in the tank and hit herself against a rock they usually sit on. The scratches were actually healing quite well until a few weeks later when they became greyish. The male just developed them on his nose, just above where his nostrils are, and then it spread to the near-tip of the nose all the way to the middle of his head, between his eyes. He only has a little mark left where it started now. It's smaller than when I first noticed it, and everyday it becomes less noticable. I'm pretty happy with the results. I only meant to treat what I saw and know well that I won't stop any serious disease without more drastic stuff from the vet. But, if it's not hurting the frog and I can prevent him from having this infection spread, and at least stop what I can see is happening, why not?
Well, most people would definitely agree that fish and frogs don't mix in captivity, but it can be and has been done. If there ever seems to be a problem for the frogs I'd surely separate them. And I filter the water, in addition to changing a quarter to half of it every day, and put the chemicals to neutralize ammonia and harmful toxins in it daily, also. I haven't had this set-up for long, but it's been getting the boy to croak more and my two females love sitting halfway into the warm water. 'Tis nice, so far.
Ah, blacklights. Is there any research to give evidence of them being harmful or beneficial in any way to amphibians? I mean, I asked here because I heard all kinds of things and there seems to be disaccord here, as well. Let's just say that although I'm pretty sure the herp black lights are the same as the Home Depot black lights, I'm just curious and I'm not going to put them in any of it yet.
Well, I know that red eyed tree frogs and some others do the whole rain chamber thing, but short of a few books I have and some Florida herp info I read online, I haven't really heard much of breeding GTFs. Most of the (small amount of) info talks about their natural habits, and I read that they breed mostly in permanent ponds that are several feet deep. That's the whole reason I did the whole fish and water thing. I also read that they use both temporary and permanent ponds, but what can I say? One thing fails, you try another.
I have a red light and don't want the black light to use at night. I want to know if anyone knew if it helped with UVB rays.. especially in diurnal herps.
Well, the 15 gallon was just a temporary thing. They do like to crawl around it a lot and I bought a 25 gallon for them yesterday, which I'll set up later today.
I certainly, certainly, certainly do not have low humidity for the, however. I live in Miami, my bedroom is nice and humid (or I'd get bouts of sinusitis--I rather not), and the tank is half full of water. With all the water that evaporates in there under the basking light, and the high humidity either way, I'm sure that at least that won't be a problem! I don't mist, because I think doing so would just be a bit over the top. I'm extremely uncomfortable if the humidity is at 70% even, so I'm sure it's at high enough levels for them. I'd really worry more that it may be at times *too* high, to be honest.
Hmmm... what's Silvadene? I wasn't trying to cure an illness, I'm just trying to keep an infection under control. It was recommended on a few tree frog websites, so I might as well try it and hope it's safer thank black blobs on my frog. The first thing I tried was H2O2 to no avail. I figured it would work, although not necessarily immediately. I would assume, then, that any infection is under the top layer of skin and that it'd work better, or at least faster, to treat it with something else. I mean, I know it's not the best reason, but seriously.. if I think something is wrong with the frog because there is a big, black splotch that just appeared and is growing rapidly, can anyone blame me for taking the risk?
Ok, about the breeding. So far, most of what I've read says that hyla cinerea likes to breed in deeper ponds. The tadpoles are bigger, blah blah blah because the ponds have fish, and so on. I mean, I never saw my frogs shed before and I didn't think it was something I was going to see until I stayed up one night and watched. Then, lo and behold, my male acts funny for three days. My conclusion was wrong about it, but what does that have to do with anything else? I haven't read up enough about GTF shedding, I guess. Also, proper tank size has been a very controversial thing because I've read at least four pet reptile and frog books saying a ten gallon is fine for four. Then you read something else, and the information is always changing. All I can do is try to judge the info as it comes along and observe my frogs to see if they seem to want more space. If my frogs just sat there in a corner all night and did nothing, I wouldn't care if people told me I needed 50 gallons a frog because it would make no sense. All I can do is judge from their behaviors when people have different opinions on the same topic. So many owners say one thing, then breeders another. Pet shops, books, herpetologists and biologists, etc. The tend to disagree on some info. It's not something you know or don't know. Who knows who is right? A cage can probably never be too big, but it sure can be unnecessarily large. If I have all these different sources for information saying different things, I'm not just going to listen to person X. Person X can be you, or it can be the person who thinks a 10 gallon is more than enough. The only thing that's going to make someone's opinions seem valuable to me in this matter is if they match what I see. In this case, I feel that a larger tank is much better and worth it, but it took me a smaller tank to a bigger tank to a bigger tank to get me there.
Anyway, I've read that info before also. I'll take another look at it, but I'm sure you've also found that so many tree frogs sites are just copy and pastes of others and it gets frustrating. The information is basically the same in so many places even when it's flat out wrong, just because it gets repeated by people. That has nothing to do with your site, directly, it's just that I want to search for more information from sources that actually bring me more information. It's hard to filter then true from the nonsense online, and I really prefer reading about these animals through books or articles written by people who have a degree or work in the field, usually. I'm not saying you don't, I truly have no idea. There's just no guarantee of anything online.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
FrOg_GuRl
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2003 00:38


woah tons of info Cheshireycat i will be sure to keep it in case i ever need it!


Morgan
becki
Moderator
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1262 posts

# Posted: 2 Jun 2003 04:20 · Edited by: becki


Okay, even though I take your post offensively, I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt that you didn't imparticularly mean it that way and explain myself further so you can better understand how it is I came about to know what I do know about frogs. Then, if you do indeed wish to challenge me, we can go that route.

Now, first of all, I am no amphibian expert and have never claimed to be.
Secondly, I assure you there are quite a few people who are so called experts in the field who couldn't tell you jack about proper husbandry for these animals.
Thirdly, everything I know, have published in my websites and reflect in my opinions on this forum did not come from care sheets online, form text books at a library or from some professor in a classroom - they came from EXPERIENCED frog keepers. People who, as a newbie knowing nothing about how to do this and making all kinds of mistakes, tolerated my endless questioning and taught me all the right things. I never missed a lick.
And in case you're concerned that they may not know their stuff, I can tell you that one person kept 15 different frogs of various species - none of which have been in his care for less than 8 years all of which are still alive and most of the other people have been doing it longer than him - some for over 30 years. If that's not information you can trust then I don't know what is. How can you say anything is being done wrong when you have frogs thriving for that amount of time?

The reason I made the comment about you needing to do more research before you breed is that, in my opinion, based on the statements you made that showed a significant lack of the basic knowledge needed to care for frogs, you were not ready to venture into breeding them. Your follow up post does not make me think any differently. If you can not tell me what your humidity range is - that you are monitoring by a humidoty guage in the tank, had them in such a small tank, are mixing with fish, self medicating unknown conditions, etc - you are not an experienced keeper. Period. I assure you, you will find noone experienced and serious about this hobby who will disagree with me. I'm not at all trying to toot my own horn but I know what I know. If you care to listen, learn and make whatever changes you need to and do this all the right way so that you can become an experienced and capable keeper and breeder, I assure you that you have come to the right place. However if you are going to bring the attitude as if you know it all already and noone here is in fact helping you, you won't get very far.

By the way, I agree that if you feel something is wrong with your frog, you should take some action. I simply disagree with the action you took. Take the frog to a vet for proper diagnosis as well as a treatment regimen. Don't experiment on them based on what you read on the internet - you yourself have just said that you never know what to trust online - but you gave your frogs medications based on online info. I just wanted you to realize that it is possible to kill a frog with some treatments - regardless if your intenetions were to help.
And, Silvadene is not a medication for the treatment of some illness, it does the same thing as Neosproin, only better - another one of the tricks of the trade I have learned along the way.
If you want help, I'm more than willing to help. I can promise you that I care and have as great a passion for this hobby - or for any animal's welfare - as anyone out there. For that reason I am always more than willing to help in any way I can - and not ashamed to admit when I can't. But on the same token, I have no tolerance for their mistreatment at human hands. And to me someone who doesn't know better because they haven't been taught is simply making an honest mistake - you own it, you fix it, it's all better. But people who refuse to obtain the right knowledge for the best care of an animal do not deserve to have any. Period. I stand strongly behind that philosophy.
You can take it or leave it for what it's worth. Enough said.
Becki

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 2 Jun 2003 05:24


Okay, I don't want to insult anyone, but there's no reason to trust you over someone just as qualified. There's no reason to believe someone else, either. Only when most of the information from everyone is the same can I feel confident that it's the right thing. That's nothing for you to take personaly, but I'm just another person trying to filter out things. It's not that I don't want to trust you, just I've heard different things on some of your info and there's no way for ANYONE to know which is absolutely true. I rather see how my frogs do and decide then.

I'd love to research more about GTF breeding, but the information has proved scarce. That's part of why I came here. If anyone has successfully bred GTFs, I'd like info. I don't want a repition of stuff someone else read on the internet only because I've already read that stuff. Only books have really given me anything concrete. Everything else is for other species of frogs and doesn't go along with what the GTF info I read was.

Anyway, what's the point in me having a humidity guage? It's summer and the humidity is usually over 90% outside. It will ALWAYS be over the 50% recommended for GTFs in my house. If it's too high for them, well, they came from Florida, they better be used to it.

What's wrong with mixing with fish? Even experienced people have done it, and plenty of people have kept the species in frog/fish ponds.

Plenty of people told me that a 15 gallon was great for three GTFs. I disagree because they use up the space and I think they should have more. I know they weren't right in this situation.

Anyway, I agree that I could have made a mistake in what I did... but I think it helped because I'm the one who sees them. I did what I could do and a lot of places said the same thing. Not necessarily for GTFs, but for different kinds of tree frogs.

Why is Silvadene better than Neosporin? I'm just curious because I've never heard of it.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice but I don't need anyone belittling me for the actions I took. I take very good care of my frogs and everyone is entitled to a few mistakes. So far, only the cage sizes were inappropriate. But it was on pet information books for GTFs and pet store employees (who I asked when buying crickets at two different places and from three different people. I did not buy any pets at either of these stores) who told me first that a 10 gallon was fine. They were reptile places and I trusted them until I figured different.

There are just some things that you have to learn for yourself and take time. I've had my frogs for a few months and they seem very healthy to me, except for the black blotches. I've read A LOT on them and I'm just sorting through info. I can't believe everything.

Please don't take offense. Put yourself in my situation when I'm worried about my frogs and want to know what these black blotches are and people start picking at everything else. Most of the stuff is either questionable, or I'm not even guilty of.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 2 Jun 2003 06:07


Well, I am am gonna put my trust in the people here, myself... I have not recieved any information from them that has not in turn made my frogs look, sound, and behave healthier. For knowledge, I would put my trust in Becki, Derek, Whitney, and Greg any day of the week. They aren't the only ones who know stuff here, but they have always for as long as I have been here been the most accurate sources of information I have found anywhere on the internet. The people on this forum really care about there pets and have done there homework, and I am sure are always doing homework still, as am I. I have not seen any person here not go out of their way to help everyone that comes here to ask questions. Thats my two cent's and I stand by it.


We can never go back to the way it was...
Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 2 Jun 2003 15:47 · Edited by: Derek Benson


Wow, lots to discuss. Chesireycat...why are you even worried about breeding your gtf when you can't keep them healthy? Another, thing with humidity, its not the same as in your house! Dang, you pissed me off, when you said they better get used to it. Go to Antarctica in a tank top and shorts and you get used to it. Now about fish and frogs. Experienced people have done it yes, are you experienced? no. You just said your frog got injured while chasing a fish, there's a problem. Your fish have ick, there's another. And in ponds......ever see a glass aquarium around the pond? Enough said. You knew those people weren't right about putting 3 gtf in a 15 gallon, but you did it anyways? Last thing, if you can't trust Becki, you may as well leave, because you won't trust anyone. She gathered her information from all of us back at kingsnake. I wish MarkC would have seen your post, you would have gotten a lot worse than this. I got my information from keeping the frogs the way a great friend of mine, Jason, told me how. it's called experience. And if you come into this hobby not trusting people with experience and trusting people at PETCO, you may as well go get a guinea pig.


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 2 Jun 2003 16:03 · Edited by: becki


I am not going to continue in this charade with you. I have said my piece and offered my advice, you're not gonna take it so I'm gonna leave it.
If you truly want to know what is wrong with your frogs - as I have said now twice before - take them to a vet. Very simple.
As far as claiming you are being belittled - I have not said anything about you as a person and have simply discussed your actions. If someone pointing out your mistakes to you in a matter to help you is taken as belittlement, you need to grow up a bit. I am not picking on you - a mature person would be able to accept there mistakes, correct them and be thankful that someone was able to help them by giving them the correct information before a frog came up dead.
And if you'd rather learn by your own mistakes as opposed form learning by the experience of people who have already been there and done that, that would be perfectly fine with me if you were experimenting with yourself or some inanimate object - not another being's life.
And just for the record, the pet store people have already proven to you that their advice is wrong. Your own experimentations with care resulting in fish with ick and frogs with black spots after a few months is not hardly a success (not to mention your frogs have to get used to whatever the humidity happens to be in their tank because you refuse to do anything to monitor or regulate it) - that should prove to you that something isn't right with your choices.
I'll give you my last bit of advice, although I doubt you'll take it, but I tried - frogs, GTF especially as a species, are very resilient animals who are able to tolerate adverse conditions for quite some time and still survive. The key words there being some time - eventually they will be adversly affected by it. But I guess, from your words, that's what it will take for you to learn how to be a good frog keeper. Poor frogs. There should be laws against things such as this.
Becki

spydergirl4594
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jun 2003 18:55


i think we all had something along those lines on the tips of our tongues.


-Sheryl
Charlie
Moderator
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5432 posts

# Posted: 2 Jun 2003 19:02


Yeah, well put.


We can never go back to the way it was...
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 04:39


Excuse me, but I do not mistreat my frogs. Some of you are twisting my words and using them against me (who's being immature?). I'm not trying to win an argument; I'm trying to stand up for my beliefs. And, I'm not rejecting information, I'm just trying to be selective and not follow blindly.

ALL I'M SAYING IS that there is a lot of contradicting information around and there is no reason for me to believe your information over someone else's information. I don't mean to offend you or make you think I think you're BSing me, but I know the humidity in my house is in the 80s and I LEARNED (of course I didn't know from the beginning) that a 15 gallon tank was not enough. I know the humidity is different inside and out, but there is a humidity guage in my house, I just don't have a guage in my tank. And I don't check it frequently. The humidity just DOESN'T get low here. Yes, there is a problem if I had ick in my tank and if two of my frogs developed black spots. But that doesn't mean I'm an idiot, and, ick is a common problem that is now fixed. And anyone would feel as if they're being belittled if they get practically attacked for asking a few questions nicely and responded to as if they know absolutely nothing. I didn't come here to give you a chance to boost your self esteem by tooting your knowledge, I was just worried about my frogs. I'm sorry I came here and frustrated you all, but those weren't my intentions and I have better things to do.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 05:01


And, so sorry to piss you off Derek, but if they're from Florida, north of me where it's dryer and a little cooler, they better get used to it. The difference is so minute. It's just how I got used to the difference between Miami and Daytona when I moved there and back. It happens.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 07:33


comparing yourself to a frog? How often do you need to be misted and would you like it if someone locked you in a sauna with a couple of people who had the flu? Cause you know the flu is a common problem too.


We can never go back to the way it was...
becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 16:32


My first post to you was in no way at all rude, harsh, belittling - I was nice, friendly, to the point and addressed all the concerns you posted about.
The tone changed as yours did. I don't see why you would ask our opinions, then when we reply - which I took a good deal of time to thoroughly explain why I thought what I did - you then say you have no reason to believe what we say. Why did you ask?
I'm not even going to continue on with this - it's a waste of my time. We'll always be here if you ever need - and are willing to recieve - help with your frogs.
Best of luck.
Becki

Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 17:15 · Edited by: Whitney


In my honest opinion, you will NOT find a group of people as knowledgeable as some of the people here. Good luck and God Speed on your search, however, for the sake of your frogs. I had a person with a few science related "degrees" tell me that my Whites and Cubans should be housed with nothing but gravel and a few inches of water at the bottom. I've also had some vets give me advice that would surely kill my herps in a matter of days. And even if you do find a person with a "degree" who is also an avid keeper and who doesn't happen to have a huge stick up his or her butt, they will tell you the same thing. Fish = bad. Yes, you add chemicals to the water for ammonia control and such, but those chemicals are being absorbed directly into you frogs bodies, and with continued exposure who knows what types of affects it could have on your captives. I'm not saying that you don't know anything when it comes to caring for your frogs, but it does appear that your priorities are a tad mixed up. Ill frogs will not breed, and unless you fix your set up, they will remain ill. All we wanted and still desire is to help you and any others in similar situation, but we also demand a certain level of respect. This is essentially our home, and we don't appreciate others coming in and disrupting it. If you can't take information from Becki, then you are in bad shape, as that will probably be the most well thought out and nicest help you will ever receive. It is common knowledge that that woman will research and research again before responding to posts that present her with something that she has never seen before. In some cases, I would call her before my own vet, and that is being completely honest. I'm am sorry that you could not find what you needed to hear from us, but by all means keep searching, and when you feel like you can admit that no one is perfect, including people with degrees and yourself, we will still be here...thriving, and helping those willing to be helped.

Whitney


<-- Say, can I have some of your purple berries? <--
Heather
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 17:25


::just applauds Whitney::


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
Charlie
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5432 posts

# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 18:39


Exactly. Well put Whit.


We can never go back to the way it was...
becki
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1262 posts

# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 21:11 · Edited by: becki


I really don't want to come off on here as if I think I am She Almightly because I am not - by any means. Hopefully I do not come off that way to most. I am humble and can readily admit I don't know "it all" - just today I summoned my fellow "expert" froggers to help Shrek with something I had never heard of before - that's what we're supposed to all be here for. But, I do want to say a heart felt thank you to those of you who support me - not so much me as ME but my beliefs for animal welfare. I know they're not just MINE and that there are so many good people who share them with me. I won't ramble on, just thanks guys. You're the best. Becki

Charlie
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 21:26


I don't think you were comming off as she almighty, and when I back ya up I am not trying to tell anyone you are she almighty either. No one here is almighty but you are one of the many people here that go above and beyond and go out of your way to search for information, and use your resouces you have instead of just saying "you're wrong" you say that's not right, but here's how you could fix it.


We can never go back to the way it was...
blink
Moderator
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 21:49


so well said whit. Becki is one of the most knowledgable stars here. I would always trust here advise.

Were all here to share advice, ideas and fun. you can think what you like about people but please keep it polite. everyone here will always do there best to help 'cos we all deeply care for the best life for all our frogs.

Cate


*blink(at)thefrog.org*

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Tiger
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 23:02


Man, thats really the right view to have Becki. If you are always humble and never satisfied with the amount of knowledge you have attained, you will always continue to learn and grow. Those who seem satisfied in their database of facts are the ones to stear clear of.
You've surely gone in the right direction and I can only hope you always find the answers that you seek.
Remember, that the taller bamboo grows, the lower it bows.
I have nothing else to post because Becki has covered it all!


Best,
~Tiger


Remain centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate. ~Chang Tzu~
cheshireycat
Member
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# Posted: 3 Jun 2003 23:53


Becki, yes, I found your first response pleasant. But, not the second. I didn't mean my response in a negative way with you, and after re-reading it, I still don't see how you took it that way. You are the one who was offended by nothing and took an angry tone with me first. Believe me, I don't come here to offend you or anyone else.

Anyway, for anyone who is interested in knowing, the frogs are fine and the black marks are gone. They're in a nice, new tank, but the fish stay for now. And I checked the humidity and it was at 72% in my room, outside the tank. The tank with water and heat is bound to be higher.

Whit, look, I respect your opinion but I obviously cannot come here and know all that automatically. I'm just trying to sort through all the different kinds of information I received on some of this stuff. My exact point is what you stated. That a lot of information from qualified people has been bogus and that meanst that I'm going to examine the source and the info before believing anything. However, pets are pets and people are bound to make mistakes. Everyone knows that "people food" is bad for dogs and cats, but how true is that? Does it really hurt to give my dog a small piece of meat every once-in-a-while? Most people break that rule constantly and their dogs still live long, long lives. It might seem off topic, but it's just the general idea I'm trying to get across. I'm not trying to make anyone mad. But, I'm not going to come and say "okay," to everything I'm told and then just do what I want. I'm going to speak up and *ask questions*. For example, it seems as if I'm never going to know why (and if, really) black lights are harmful to certain, or all, herps. Also, I understand what you're saying about the chemicals building up in the frogs, but the bottles from Kordon specifically say "Dosage can be increased or repeated as needed without toxic effects to animals or plants," and "Non-toxic to humans, pets, and aquatic life." Another water conditioner I use is specifically for frogs. Now, they could be lying, but that would be getting way beyond my control. I just want my tank to somewhat mimic nature. Like I said, however, if there is ever a real problem, I will quickly separate them.
I appreciate your honesty and assure you that I certainly don't want to cause any disruption. But, I feel as if I was treated rudely by some people who seem to just like to make people feel like they're wrong and don't know anything. I said it once and I'll say it again, I'm not here to boost anyone's self esteem. That comment is certainly not targeted at you, but it is my opinion that that's why I was told some of the things I was in such a manner. Why? No one tried to tell me what they thought my frogs had, they just criticized certain things (I'm not saying they didn't have reason, but you certainly don't talk down to people, especially when you are only assuming most of what you're saying).
If you or anyone feels as if I'm disrupting your home, then it would probably be best for someone to delete this thread, and I'll be sure to not bother anyone here again. I respect anyone's wishes if they feel I don't belong in their home. Either way, I'm very willing to learn more about my pets, but I can do it in other ways than this, also. Whether I'm here or somewhere else, I also have the right to demand a certain amount of respect and refuse to be treated as a negligent dunce, because anyone who sees what I do knows I take wonderful care of my frogs. Maybe not exceptional, as I'm still learning when it comes to tree frogs, but I'm constantly moving up and trying to keep my frogs happy and healthy.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
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