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talk to the frog / Help / Maybe Dropsy???? ASAP if possible.
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Frog Style
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2007 23:38


Hi guys,

No, this time I am not over reacting. We jsut got home from work, said hello to all our frogs as normal. The one guy who loves the side of the tank was up there as always. I went over to him to say hello (cuban), and this is what I see hanging from his anus.

Please, tell me something good is of this, please tell me something isn't wrong with him, or he's going to die. Please. I am in upset amount of tears right now....

This is the best picture Jay and I could get, it wouldn't focus on the glass so we had to do a weird movement to get into the tank.

Our tank setup is mainly pothos, branches, fake branch, bark (that was in the tomatoes) , a small dog dish for water and cocofiber for substrate, that's it.

Do you need us to separate him into a rubbermaid container until then? I don't want it to spread (whatever it may be) to the other cubans. Do we need to buy a temporary tank for him? I am just worried









I am thinking dropsy, as many posts have been on this, (no pictures on the posts) but I've made that assumption what it may look like. I also thought it may be eggs, but wouldn't the eggs fall down into the ground if this was the case?

I will tell you this - today when we left to go to work, EVERY frog was moving in the Cuban's tank. They didn't act sick, that THING was not there. We just got home about 15 mins ago and I see him with this thing hanging out his butt!

Please help me, someone


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Dakhota
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2007 23:46


It could be a prolapse. What does it feel like? It almost looks like a piece of the tailbone sticking out. I had this happen with one of my white's and it was a humidity issue.


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Hayden
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2007 23:48 · Edited by: Hayden


Looks like a prolapse to me as well. Get him to a vet.

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# Posted: 19 Oct 2007 23:49


I haven't touched it yet. I didn't want to make our frog any more uncomfortable than it already is. What do I need to feel if it's hard? Soft? What do I do?

There is a local Herp Vet here in town, I'm not sure if he's still active. We found it on Google, but the site hasn't been updated since December of last year. Should we call that guy and see what he says? (If he's still around).

What did you do to fix it? If it's humidity issue, how can that happen? The humidity on these guys are to be around 70-90%, and that's what we have it. UNLESS our humidity thing is broken, and if that's the case, I'll go buy one.


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Frog Style
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# Posted: 19 Oct 2007 23:54


We're on the phone with one of the vet guys to see if they can take him in tonight, possiblity. For now, do I need to put him in a rubbermaid container? What do I need to do to make him feel less comfortable until I get the information on where this Herp vet is located?

I feel like I'm a bad pet owner for allowing this to happen. Thanks again guys for the quick responses.


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KittenClaw22
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 00:38


Put him on a paper towel substrate in a completely sterile environment. That is basically the inside of his anus if it is a prolapse (which I believe it is.)

Fortunately it doesn't seem like a very bad rectal prolapse. You see a lot worse. It should be relatively easy to get it to go back up, but in many cases it never goes back to normal and its just a matter of time until they die. However, that doesn't look bad at all.

If you can't get him to a vet you should start warm water soaks. Some people suggest warm sugar water to help relieve rectal prolapse. If you do a forum search you will pull up homemade recipes for this.

Most people suggest taking a q-tip coated with mineral oil or triple antibiotic ointment (without pain medication) and working it in a circular fashion around the prolapse to ease it back in.

What we really need to be worried about is what caused the prolapse. Usually, a bad case of intestinal parasites or an impaction will cause this.

I suggest trying to find a poop sample to take to the vet, you need to have it checked for what type parasite (if any) to treat for. The vet usually doesn't charge much for this (around $10 plus another couple $$ for meds.)

You will need to treat all the frogs in with this guy as they will likely all be infected with parasites as well (if that is the case.) Considering that they are cubans and likely wild caught I think that sets a pretty good case for the parasite theory.

Here is a picture of dropsy:
http://allaboutfrogs.org/info/doctor/bloat1.jpg
http://allaboutfrogs.org/info/doctor/bloat2.jpg
http://www.fishpondinfo.com/photos/amphibians/adf/ adfbloat1.jpg

Dropsy is more common in fully aquatic animals such as fish or african dwarf frogs. It is a swelling of the stomach cavity and usually a reddening of the entire swollen area. These two examples are deceased so the redness isn't obvious.

Dropsy is caused by consuming unclean food and environment, it is basically a bacterial infection accompanied with severe gas.

Something like dropsy that is more common in land amphibians is redleg. It is a reddening of the entire area, swelling, a bad infection caused from unclean environment (and possibly diet.)


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KittenClaw22
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 00:40


PS: This doesn't indicate a bad pet owner. If it is caused from parasites then the problem probably started long before you got the frogs since they are a newly acquired pet, correct?

If it is an impaction all I can suggest is switching to shredded coconut husk and laying off the chitinous insects and feeding more earthworms.


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Dakhota
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 00:40


When it was Jules' tailbone, it felt just like bone.


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Meow Frog
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 01:22 · Edited by: Meow Frog


Ok this is what happened:
Took a while to get the Cuban frog into our container, by that time it look like it had retracted or receded, it's possible it might had just been some poop but i was not able to see, while transporting him I did notice it is gone (or went back in) he seems to be ok. We went to the emergency vet but the office we went to did not have experienced vets and the recommended doc at the other office is out until 8am tomorrow. From what I can tell it is gone or back up so I'm not sure, I did not have a chance to feel it with hands because he hopped to the far side of the tank and it was kinda gone if that makes sense . He is now back in the tank and seems like he's ok, we'll keep an eye on him and take him to the exotic doc if it comes out again .

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# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 02:02


Ok one of the Herp vet docs called us back and talked to him, he reassured us that it was not a complete prolapse and might had been a coaca (sp?) partial protrusion and just to watch him over the next few days(in and outs)to make sure he's ok

KittenClaw22
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# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 02:15


Well like I said, the important part is finding out what caused it. If it is a prolapse you will need to get a poo sample to the vet to see if you have a problem with parasites.

If I were you I would separate all the frogs in that enclosure until you get a poo sample from each one to get it checked under a microscope for parasites. This way you can treat them if they are infected, and in all likelihood they are.


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Frog Style
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 05:18


Just to update:

The guy is alright. He's doing much better now, we watched him nearly all weekend. Our Herp vet said that if it gets worse to call him in, but he should be okay.

I would get samples of the poo, but they're gonna charge us a stupid amount and maybe not even beable to tell what's going on. This isn't from our herp vet, but from the first place we went to.


The only thing I am worried about now is that they're not eating as much. Is it because it's winter time and they're kind of hibernating? They've ate before (a lot), but now it seems they're eating very little. I still hear the bigger of them all crickets chirping, but I know it's lessen each night as I don't hear all of them much anymore. They eat, they're not skinny, it's just that it's very little eating than they did in the summer. Is this normal?


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memnoch1970
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 05:35


you must have an inexperienced vet with amphibians. kittens right , you keep asking what to do. they need to be checked for parrasites. if you dont want to pay for it then the least you can do is treat them for parrasites. your frogs dont know its winter. there from subtropical climates. the coldest weather they see is about 50 or 60 degrees. and then only for about a month if that. i live in florida i know the weather here. so if you cant pay to take care of your frogs at the vet, try to get some panacure or something to treat them.


memnoch the devil
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 06:12 · Edited by: Frog Style


Are you not listening to me mem? They want to charge us $80 for a poo sample and in return telling us they don't know anything about frogs. THIS WAS NOT THE HERP VET THIS WAS THE REGULAR 24/7 clinic.

I never said I can't afford it, I am not paying $80 to spend on a clinic that knows nothing of frogs.

The guy we spoke to on the phone explained what we had to do. We didn't ask him about the poo samples. The other place was going to charge us for getting samples and a check up. I can call the herp vet that We spoke to, but he said unless it is not a emgerancy he can not get us in until 2 months later, as he's booked up until then.

There is rarely anything 'herp vet' about in Boise. If you do a google search, type in Herp Vets in Boise, you'll find three people. The site has not been updated for 3 years, the only person that is experienced in 'herps' is Dr. Koob who we called and who I mentioned about before.

I know what FL tempatures are like. I lived in FL my entire life up until Nov 26 2006. I know what FL temps are like, I know that it doesn't get that cold.

I am not the type of person to get a animal and not pay for their care, however, would you pay $80 to some clinic that knows crap about frogs?

Dr. Koob, the herp vet, said if it became a emgerancy he'll try and squeeze us in, but if it isn't .. it can be up to two months before we even got into his office.

When I put the little guy in the container when taking him to the animal clinic, the stuff that was hanging out went back in.

When Dr. Koob called us after we went to the clinic that was going to charge us $80 to talk on a online forum with other doctors and maybe figure out what was wrong & get a poo sample, he told us to keep an eye on him over the weekend. He is okay now.

But as I said about the winter --- I am just asking. I read online that Cubans (I believe it was them, or another frog) will not eat *alot* in the winter vs. summer.

But thanks for reading into it the wrong way...

I'm not going to say anything else. I did what Dr. Koob said, and if you are disagreeing with what he told us to do, then I guess you can look him up on google and call him. But I think that'll be a little childish to do.

I did everything I can, however, again, I am not paying $80 to a clinic that can 'check for parasites' but not know anything about it.

edit:

I am sorry to be a little defensive, but I don't like being noted that I don't want to take care of my frogs. I've done everything up to the point of not wanting to pay a rediciously (sp) amount of money.

For the sake of anything, we can call after work tomorrow and ask the guy if he can do poo samples.

But please don't act as if I want my frog to be in pain/hurt/sick etc. I do not want that. I know the feeling of having a sick animal. I've owned many animals before these guys, I know what to do in situations like that.


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memnoch1970
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 06:47


uh, where did i say you dont want to take care of your frogs? you completly ignored the fact that i said something about doing a little preventive care and treating your frogs with panacur or something similiar. ill bet anything those cubans are wild caught. its not wether they have parrasites its how many and what kind. so focus on that instead of being so defensive. so i think your reading things the wrong way. anyway, look into some treatments, because i guarantee all your frogs have parrasites of some sort. just because his prolapse went away visibly doesnt mean hes all better. you dont want it to spread to your other frogs do you. yes a prolapse probably wont spread, but something caused it. i treat all my frogs with panacur when i get them, ive lost very few animals considering the number of them i have. anyway goodluck.


memnoch the devil
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 14:27


Okay, then I do apologize that I took it the wrong way, the way I read it seemed as so. For that I am sorry.

We read your post, and we were not sure on the extent of what you meant by panacur. Will it hurt the frog? What do you do? I never heard of anything like that before.

Is there a way we can buy a long tank, and separate it by 3 dividers to put the frogs on quarinitine(sp)? Reason why I ask, is I think that's how Lisa had the Cubans before they were shipped to me. I am judging this on the photos that were on her myspace. However, I can not bring those up since I am at work right now. I do know that one of the frogs will be in the tank.

We are going to try and clean out their current tank this week before I leave for Orlando, FL. I just wanted to make sure they'll be okay in a different (long) tank while we clean it out as well.

I got them from ILoveGreen and Idon't think she knew they were WC, and even then, they've never shown this type of behaviour for me - I am not sure if they did for her, but either or it is a bit freaky.

I do appriecate all your help though mem, and sorry about that. If you can explain to me what the panacure is and what to do, I can do it....


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KittenClaw22
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 16:35


Any vet can check a poop sample under a microscope for parasite eggs. Here is what they do. They dissolve the poo in water, look at it in the scope, if eggs are floating they identify the species of parasite and prescribe treatment.

Do not treat unless you know if you have parasites and what kind. Different meds for different worms. Panacure is an often used dewormer. So is albon. One of these is likely to be subscribed.

Most vets charge a bout $10 for the poo sample and another $10 or so for the meds.

They don't need to see the frog. Just say you want the poo sample checked for parasites because of a recent rectal prolapse scare. There is no need for a check up.

If that vet won't do it hit everyone in the phone book. Any vet can look at sh!t under a microscope. It isn't rocket science.


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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 17:15


yeah, you're telling me kitten

Ok, what I'm going to do after work today is go to petco, buy the critter keepers and put all four cubans in thre while we clean out their tank. Just to be sure it isn't something in the tank. Also, the sick little one will stay in the critter for a week or so just to make sure it won't spread.

I'll also call a vet around here (hell, maybe petco can do it, since they have vets inside a little room for cats/dogs anyway) and see if they can do a poo sample. I am not sure why the 24/7 clinic wanted to still charge $80 , but eh. Go figure.


The reason why I mentioned about not eating, is because there are still crickets in the tank - the bigger ones that sing - it seems they won't eat them, though they did last week. I know they ate our calcium powdered ones, because they weren't in the tank this morning before we left for work. I wasn't sure if we got a bad batch of the 2k crickets thru LLLReptile or something. Even our tomatoes are very picky at the current ones we have.

As far as poop goes, I can give any types of poop that are in the tank correct? We keep the poop in there to dissolve into the plants for food (What we were told to do from someone on the here, but dont remember name, sorry)- Any poo samples will be fine? Or do I need to grab all the poop that is in the tank just for safety measure?

Thanks again, and sorry to sound ignornant earlier.

edit: Pardon my typos, but at work I can't use firefox, there fore i can't use the auto spellcheck they have lol


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KittenClaw22
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 17:35


The emergency clinic always charges outrageous fees. Its because they have to staff the place 24/7. A regular non-emergency vet will be much less.

Since they have lived together for so long I imagine that if one has parasites they all will. So any poo sample will do. If you can I would try to get one from the sick frog. Wait until they are separated and try to get one from the sick frog, since he is the one under question.

Most if not all the cubans on the market are wild caught. They are so plentiful and cheap no one captive breeds them because there is no money in it. You'd lose money trying to do it because most petstores and even pet owners would chose young wild caughts captured in spring right after morph as opposed to some that was a little more that came from a breeder. Same with chubby frogs and green tree frogs, so many species are just so cheap and easy to get wild caught. It costs more to feed them than you can hope to get on the market. As a result you can almost guarantee that any frog you get is wild caught. So the possibility of having parasites is a great one.


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Frog Style
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# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 17:51


No problem. I get off in four hours (330 mountain time). We're gonna go to Petco and get our supplies, and see if we can get that poo sample from the sick guy tonight and possibility go to the vet before they close tomorrow.

Thanks again for all your help guys i will update you tonight when we get home. I believe we will be cleaning the tank tonight


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Frog Style
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 14:25


Just so you guys know:

I don't think I am ever going to what I had to do last night again. The frogs were completely stressed out to the point of not liking the critters keepers tank we kept them in for four hours to clean the tank.

Secondly , that tank was a bitch to clean lol. On a serious note, they're not so stressed anymore. We tried to feed them in the tank, however they did not eat. We didn't feed them last night so they can un-stress themselves. The only thing they are missing is the pothos plant. We had to chunk it incase it had baterica on it. We put the wood/fake branch back in after we cleaned it and dried it for the three hours.... but the bark is not in there yet. They don't have their lights on today because there are rarely no hiding spots, until we get the pothos back in the tank (Have to buy them again).

So yeah, I don't think I am going to be cleaning out again like that. I really didn't like how far stressed they were.

But they're doing good now. We will be going to Wal-Mart to get our water, and then pothos plants.

So, so far so good....


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nuggular
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 19:26


The first thing I thought when I saw the pictures was "That looks like a turd"

I dont think that was a prolapse at all. It is brown and looks like poo. Then you say when you moved him, you noticed it was gone. Probably because the poo he was pooing finally dropped. I think you got all worked up over nothing guys.


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# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 19:59


Man, why did everyone say it was prolapse lol.

Yeah, when we tried to move him he woke up and then the stuff disappeared, but I was not certain if it just went up (if it was really pro-lapse) or what. Jay said it was poo, but I didn't believe him.

Should we, just incase, get a poo sample? Or just leave it be?


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Frog Style
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 20:44


Thank you for pointing out the obivious...... lol


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Carlton
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# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 23:28


I'd rather see someone be overly concerned about this than not. Maybe it was poop and maybe it was a partial prolapse. Either way, you know a bit more about the frog and what COULD have happened. Prolapses are dangerous things! You also know a bit more about the local vets if you need one again. Getting a routine fecal done on a group of frogs is always a good idea. Any vet can do this...doesn't have to be a specialist or the 24/7 vet. You will find out what your frogs currently carry and whether there is a huge population of any particular parasite that should be treated. They may not need anything and continue to be healthy. Remember, parasites may not cause too much trouble if the frog is healthy, but stress and a subtle health problem can cause them to bloom and overwhelm the frog's immune system. It is a good idea to check this, especially with wc animals kept in groups. BTW, you also know what a complete tank cleaning is going to mean! You would have to clean the tank periodically anyway so it's better to know before you need to. I'm glad he's OK! Knowledge is power.


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nuggular
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2007 01:21


Frog Style,

A fecal test (poo sample) is always a good idea. Get one done and see whats up. They might need some meds.... Or they might be perfectly fine. The reason I say "they" is because if they live together and one frog tests positive for parasites, chances are the other one has them too and both frogs need to be treated.


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# Posted: 24 Oct 2007 14:00


Yeah. I will still be getting that done, the problem is, they're not eating right now, and it seems the tank doesn't want to stay warm. I kept the a/c off last night, our apt. got HOT, but the tank still stayed cold.

We can not turn on the lights yet, until we get our pothos. When we get home, we watch to make sure they're not burning up.... but they atm, do not have hiding places until we re-plant the pothos.

So i'm kind of worried that they are not eating


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nuggular
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# Posted: 24 Oct 2007 14:31


You need to get some fake plants in there for now. And turn on the lights. You are messing with their natural cycle from day to day and that might be why they are not eating. Get alot of cover in there for them to make them feel more comfortable and turn the light on during the day so they no its day time. That will also help keep the temps up.


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# Posted: 24 Oct 2007 14:57


Yeah, we have our kitchen light on for the time being, unfort. I am at work and don't get off until 330 MTN time, or I'd do it.

What fake plants do you recommend as far as nothing too abrasive? to hurt them. We're going to get the pothos, though today after work, and I'll buy the fake plants -- but what do you recommand?


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0.0.1 - Leopard Gecko
nuggular
Member
2847 posts
2847 posts

# Posted: 24 Oct 2007 18:37


I just go into Walmart to the craft section and get some of there fake plants. Like vines and leafy ones. Thats all I do. As long is there is nothing pointly on them, the frogs will be fine.


Climb on!
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talk to the frog / Help / Maybe Dropsy???? ASAP if possible.
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