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talk to the frog / General / Mixing
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treefroglover37
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 14 Jul 2004 22:19


why

lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 15 Jul 2004 01:25


treefroglover-- In general, we never recommend mixing different frog species at all for many reasons that are probably really scatted thoughout the post, which has recently gotten totally off the subject thread into discussing substrates. I can understand why no one would want to read the entire thing. We tend to go off on tangents all the time.

We get this same question from almost every new poster, and most of us have asked it ourselves when we began. It seems to be an attractive thing to do and people tend to like variety in a single tank.

Some of the many reasons for not mixing that I can think of off hand are:

1. Different temperature and humidity requirements.
2. Competition for food and sometimes different food requirements.
3. Size differences. Big ones may eat little ones.
4. Competition for space, which is limited in a terrarium. Many frogs are extremely territorial, and do not "play well with others."
5. Aggression/intimidation/stress. Many frogs will become reclusive with another species present, although you may not see deliberate intimidation.
6. Skin toxins. Many frogs and almost all toads have skin toxins, some very potent, that might affect another species.
7. Possible transmission of different parasites or diseases between the species. (What is commensual with one may become pathogenic in another that has had no previous exposure and no antibodies to limit pathogenicity, especially with the added stress of being strangers to each other.)
8. With some frogs, such as darts, different species that might breed together may create undesireable hybrids. While not harmful in itself, there are ethical reasons for keeping the different morphs and species "pure," mainly for breeder sales and exchanges. This would not apply in your case, of course.

It's simply best to separate them.


Lee
treefroglover37
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 15 Jul 2004 02:23


do u know any frogs that are compatible ill take my chances

Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 15 Jul 2004 02:47


You don't listen do you? It's called experience, we all have it. You obviously don't if you don't understand why not to mix these species. South American climate is far from Australian, the White's will eat the clown, etc. If you decide to go through with these, please keep a record and post to us how long it takes for the frogs to die. Thanks.

Strike 3! You're out!


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 15 Jul 2004 05:24


I know of none that will live together successfully for any length of time. Some Europeans are into mixing selected dart species, but these people have very elaborate set-ups and take a lot of constant care with them. They also know what they are doing, have tons of experience and are experts with the Dentrobaditae family. I have several years of experience with 7 different species, but wouldn't dream of even trying this.

You may see mixes in certain pet store chains that are into mass sales, and you may even meet pet store employees that will tell you it's perfectly all right. These people have not been properly trained and educated. They are just making sales with bum advice. I would not even purchase a frog from a mix.

Why not set up your first vivarium with the White's only, read and follow all of the care sheets, get some experience with this, then if you want another species, set up a second one with the clowns? With some cleaver arranging, you might be able to make it look like a single habitat, although each would have different specific conditions and not even see each other.


Lee
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 16 Jul 2004 15:48


Good point Lee. I've seen that many places. Where multiple enclosures are lined up on a shelf and designed to look like a single landscape split between em.


We can never go back to the way it was...
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 27 Jul 2004 15:41


Derek, that is one of the best ideas I've read. Although it sounds just aweful for a second, having whoever really feels the intense need to mix actually document what happens and share it benefits everyone but the frogs being used for experiment.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 27 Jul 2004 22:28


White's are too big if you ask me. They'll hog food, good spaces and intimidate the Clowns. Just my opinion though.

I do like the idea of seperate enclosures since you could make a South American themed tank and a Autralian themed tank. For instance bromiliads in one, etc.

Anonymous


# Posted: 7 Aug 2004 18:28


i work at petsmart and it can be sad when they throw whites in with gold treefrogs and large toads in a twenty. i bought a large toad, gold treefrog, and a painted frog(chubby). they now live in a 50gallon with 2 whites.there is plenty of space for each. each has a hiding space. also the whites are nocturnal so they never see the gold who is usually active in the day.plus the toad and painted are burrowers so they are always underground. if u take great precaution and with plenty of planning(AND MONEY!)mixing can be ok.
cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 7 Aug 2004 22:34


Anonymous, it sounds as if this is a new tank. I understand if you don't agree with the advice given, however, why contradict advice on a forum that is tried and tested? It's not just about space. There are chemical concerns, too.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 7 Aug 2004 23:47


50 gallon is an extremely small tank. Now a 500...that's large. Don't mix species.


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 8 Aug 2004 02:19


There is NOT plenty of space for each in a 50 gallon tank. Eight pages into this same topic and we are still unable to convince people not to mix different frog species in the same tank without redundant, prolonged argument each time it is brought up again by a new member. I remember wanting to do this too when I started out, but after keeping my dart species duly separated, watching their habits and breeding activities, I'm glad I resisted. Of course now, I have 12 vivariums, and if it keeps up, the family is going to have to move out to the barn loft.

If you have the money you mentioned that it takes to "mix" them, why not provide separate tanks or perhaps also divide the 50 with a glass barrier into two 25's? There are a lot of cleaver things you can do to make several tanks blend and look like a single habitat, as well.

I have successfully mixed small tropical fish and 3 D. galactonotus in a 150 gallon "paludarium" divided between land and water, as these frogs never go into deep water deliberately, but most other kinds of frogs would eat the fish or toads might exude toxins into the water. I had some ADF's in with the tropical fish at one time, but even they get along much better in a separate tank.

Another "successful so far" mix has been a Desert Horned lizard and a Sagebrush lizard, both from the same habitat, but even then, I have to be very careful about when I feed the horned lizard his mound ants, because these bother the sagebrush lizard if the horned lizard isn't hungry enough to dispatch all of them immediately. The sagebrush lizard eats flies, moths, crickets, etc. and the only food they both share is an occasional meal worm. The much smaller sagebrush lizard sits upon and sometimes rides around on top of the horned lizard and basks with him without apparent stress to either. I admit that their seemingly "buddy system" and antics are entertaining. But these are thick-skinned lizards from an identical local habitat, not more delicate frogs with sensitive and absorbant membranes for skin. They have no toxins and their water dish is a pebble-filled dish for "dew lapping," and they don't sit, soak or poop in it. I may be fooling myself, even so.

Please, pretty please, just don't mix your different frog species, or at least keep them separate long enough to appreciate the challenge and interest of keeping each individually.


Lee
Anonymous


# Posted: 8 Aug 2004 19:27


my 50 gallon has been set up for a while now. i used to have my whites in with firebellies(now that was stupid).however the reason i didnt place them in a different terrarium is because i dont have the space. i have a 20L with 3 firebellies, a crayfish, and 2 rosy red feeder fish that just wouldnt get eaten so i feed them now. and no the toad toxins will not kill the crayfish or fish. a filter and frequent water changes handles that(plus ammolock dechlorinater get rid of fish ammonia). they are fine i've had the toads for about 6 years now. i also have a 30 gallon tall with 2 female green anoles and a house gecko. they are fine they even lay on each other while basking sometimes. yes my 50 gallon has enough room. my animals rarely see each other because of there activities. the whites are sleepin in a tree stump as we speak while the large toad is chillin in the waterfall, the gold treefrog is sittin on the other side of the terrarium eatin crickets and my burrower the painted frog is underground in the tunnels. everything has worked for a while. im not saying it is ok to mix or wutever im just letting u know that it can work with the right animals and enough attention.
Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 8 Aug 2004 19:52


I'll tell you right away your firebellied toads are in danger, I've had crayfish in with various animals, and they have always killed the animal, if they can kill turtles then they can kill your firebellied toads, and they don't even have to be very big crayfish either, and no it doesn't metter if the crayfish is hungry or not, they kill stuff to take down and eat later.

And 2 whites treefrogs alone need at least a 40 gallon tank. So there is not enough room.
And you just said it, the toad is chillin in the waterfall, all bufo have toxins that they exude, so there are toxins in your water that can kill your other frogs. And on top of that your animals don't share the same temperature range and habitat requirements. The whites and the toad may require low humidity, but the others need a fairly high humidity to remain comforatble as well. You can't hope to ever acheive all of those frogs care requirements in a 50 gallon tank, let alone their space requirements.

If you would like to stick around please sign up for the forums and post under a name.


0.1.0 Leopard Geckos
0.0.3 Razorback Musk Turtles
Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 00:57


White's tree frogs are from Australia.
Golden tree frogs are from southeast Asia.
Painted Frogs are from Asia.

How you can recreate all of those individual habitats in that small of a tank is beyond me.

I am with amazinglyricist (josh), crawfish are scavengers and will prey on anything and everything.


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
Rosemary
Member
67 posts
67 posts

# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 01:01


Thanks for the very informative posts, everyone. I am new at this and this is stuff I needed to know.

Anonymous


# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 02:58


my crayfish has lived with my toads for 3 years. there hasn't been a problem. the humidity is not a problem in the 50 whites, golds, and painted have very similar humidity levels and the toad is the only one with a moderate humidity level. now most toads can live very easily in a higher humidity level. they prefer 60 and the humidity is set around 80.oh and the temp. is set at 78 during the day and 70 at night. that is just fine for the frogs. also captive bred frogs do not need there habitat to resemble there wild surroundings. as long as they have places to hide and things to climb they are fine. again the gold treefrog and the toad lived with whites since they were born. i think they can deal with it.the toxins are not a problem frequent water changes handles that. captive bred animals are easier to mix. mixing can be risky i agree but it is not 100% that it will fail. oh and my name is anonymous.
Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 03:41


Of course your name is anonymous, anyone cowardly enough to come here, diagree with what's right, and say they are right wouldn't post their name.


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 03:43


I give up. Maybe people named "anonymous" can deal with all of this in their imagination, but I doubt the successful experience they appear to be reporting without documentation except for some humidity/temperature research is real. Otherwise, these people would lend their real name and identity to their Bull Shit. I'm off the mixing post forever.


Lee
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 05:15


Amen brotha. Maybe someone should make an anon board somewhere, where we can send all the ignorant. It'd be like a big retard convention.


We can never go back to the way it was...
Anonymous


# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 17:24


ok so yall dissin me? just because i dont have the time to post constantly and give a name. if i wasnt busy id be on here too.i love discussin herps(especially frogs). anyway yall are just mad my setup has worked.
mve
Member
1732 posts
1732 posts

# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 18:00 · Edited by: mve


I have a really cool mixed tank. a fire salamander and a gila monster. I know they are from different area's, and they require different requirements, and the salamander will probably be lunch one day, but it has worked so far!


http://www.myspace.com/somanyothers
Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 9 Aug 2004 21:32


haha. Nice Mark.


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 10 Aug 2004 00:15


No I'm not dissin you cause you don't have time to register and post all the time... I'm dissin ya cause you have a room full of people tyelling you your wrong, and you insist that since you haven't had one die that its okay.

How about we drop you in a tiny box with Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, and Lenox Lewis, and tell em you said boxing is stupid. Now imagine living like that on a daily basis for six years. And see how you feel...

Moron.


We can never go back to the way it was...
lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 11 Aug 2004 00:42


It takes about 5 minutes or less to register, get a name and password, and after that, it is nothing but a name entry to post, if you have the program remember the password. No trouble at all. There are several anonymous people posting, so we don't always know to whom we are posting.
You made a statement in your original post that we all disagreed with, then proceeded to argue about it with the fallacious arguement that it is working for you, which it may for awhile-- the same as Mark's fictitious firebellied salamander/Gila Monster spoof might work for a day or two.

"We-yall" are not mad that your set-up has worked so far. None of us would be jealous about documented success. It would be a first in our combined experiences, however-- and we would need more than one person's anonymous word for it.

I said I was going to go off the "mixing post" forever, but Evol also notified us that he was "retiring" for a few months and it goosed him up, so I had to get in a few more cents worth.

Get a name and identification, then post honestly about what is happening with your logically incompatible mixture.


Lee
twixster
Member
321 posts
321 posts

# Posted: 11 Aug 2004 04:34


He just keeps testing our patience

20 bucks says he's a little kid bored to death at home and has come to annoy us because his mom sent him to his room..........


-TwIxStEr
Ziff
Member
14 posts
14 posts

# Posted: 11 Aug 2004 05:24


Hello, this is my first post, and I'm fairly certaint that I'm going to begin my actual herpetology endevours with some form of frog or toad.

My previous experience with herps was exclusively through catching bull frogs and leopard frogs around my house and while camping. Also, I bred a pair of garter snakes when I was about 12. I learned that there are various ways of keeping animals healthy, and I also learned that these snakes really like to try to eat each other (about 20 times I had to pry them apart during their eating bouts).

Anyhow, on to my question. As a beginner, I'm hoping to get poison dart frogs or possibly red eyes. I had considered getting an ornate horned toad, but the look of it (I personally love the lump on a log appearance + colours) deterred my parents from allowing it entrance into our home. I have been told by my friends who are avid keepers of herps that keeping certain tree frogs (like the red eyes) happy requires you to have a small community of them in the same enclosure. I have not had the time to verify their claims in person with the people at Reptilia in Vaughan (which absolutely give the utmost care to their reptiles and amphibians; for example all of their animals are given seperate enclosures when on display), but the internet seems to agree with them. If that is the case for Red Eyes, then what species would be preferrable to keep together in an enclosure if they are poison dart frogs. I was considering keeping various morphs of a single specie in it to keep the difficulty to a minimum (difficulty doesn't bother me by the way, I'm home everday, and I have friends who would be absolutely thrilled to look after these animals). The species I was looking at were of the D. tinctorius, or possibly a mixture of D. Reticulatus and D. ventrimaculatus. As a beginner, I am not so sure of my skills, although I'm positive that I could cope with any difficulties that would arise when keeping such exotic animals.


A spell was cast and the sky turned red
Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 11 Aug 2004 16:58


You need to start out with beginner species. Forget the dart frogs and red-eyes. Go with some more common things like fire bellies, green tree frogs, white's tree frogs, etc.

You need to do your research before you suggest mixing anything. Mixing different morphs of a dart frog will create a mixed up species of frog when they get breeeding. Any time you mix dendrobates (retics and vents) there is a high chance, that these frogs will hybridize and make hybrid offspring, which is frowned upon. I highly suggest you keep other frog first. Not only do you have the troubles with darts (I wouldn't even think about thumbnail species, in no way are you ready. Thumbnails are pumilio, vents, imitators, reticulatus, lamasi, casts, etc.) but you also have to deal with fruit flies, setting up a naturalistic terrarium with proper lighting, plants, soil, drainage, misting, temperature, etc. You'd be much better off getting a fire-bellied toad. Colorful, active, easy to care for.


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 12 Aug 2004 17:30


Darts were my first frogs, and some species are rather easy, provided you meet the original requirements as Derek cites above. Do avoid the thumbnails for first frogs, however, and don't mix species together. I'd suggest the D. leucomelas, P. terribilis, D. galactonotus (orange forms) for first darts. They get along in groups, are fairly good sized and relatively bold. In my experience, the easiest and boldest of the thumbnails are the D. imitator, but they are tiny, very athletic and need bromeliads.

Take your time, read all the care sheets and explore the different breeder sites such as Black Jungle, Saurian.net, Quality Captives, Pumilio.com, etc.

I must admit to being biased toward the darts because I have little to no experience with some of the others, so you might want to weigh Derek's opinion a bit more heavily than mine, as he has experience with many different kinds. On the other hand, you don't need to rule darts out completely as first frogs as long as you're able to provide the naturalized terrarium situation with proper humidity and temperatures at all times.


Lee
Anonymous


# Posted: 3 Oct 2004 17:53


Are green tree frogs toxic enough to kill a cat?
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