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talk to the frog / General / Keeping native frogs as pets, Law & Moral Implications of a Frogger
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cambiopacifico
Member
81 posts
81 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 17:36


I have heard that you are not allowed to keep native animals as pets. This I am specifically referring to Hyla regilla - Pacific Tree Frog, being kept as pets in Southern California.

I would like to setup a native biome(55g stream paludarium) for H.regilla but do not to break any laws! Is there a specific rule that regulates this? I have seen them for sale online, but always out of state(and out of stock). It is a species of "least concern" and considered very common. I would use local plants/mosses and possibly some Tui Chub.

Are there breeders of this species? I do not want to go strip animals from the area(although, one of their main spots to breed locally has JUST been bulldozed for rich peoples custom houses - maybe they would like a new home?). I am not sure on my own opinions on such things. All of these creatures were wild at some point, had to be caught first and raised to become captive bred. I do know you need a fishing license to gather amphibians, but not much other info I see so far.

What are the moral downsides to going to this construction site and gathering some tadpoles or a couple young frogs? Unless the frogs leave soon they will be killed by large trucks, covered in concrete and have there homes completely demolished. The stream has been diverted now into a drainage pipe instead of a free flowing, rocky, natural river-bound stream.

Thoughts? Opinions? Facts?


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dcravens
Member
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804 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 19:34


5.05. Amphibians.

(a) Only the following amphibians may be taken under the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the restrictions in this section. No amphibians may be taken from ecological reserves designated by the commission in Section 630 or from state parks, or national parks or monuments.

Salamanders

(1) Pacific giant salamander (Dicamptodon tenebrosus)
(2) California giant salamander (Dicamptodon ensatus)
(3) Southern Seep (Torrent) Salamander (Rhyacotriton variegatus)
(4) Rough-skinned newt (Taricha granulosa)
(5) California newt (Taricha torosa)
(6) Red-bellied newt (Taricha rivularis)
(7) Northwestern salamander (Ambystoma gracile)
(8) Long-toed salamander (Ambystoma macrodactylum), except Santa Cruz long-toed salamander (Ambystoma macrodactylum croceum)
(9) Black salamander (Aneides flavipunctatus)
(10) Clouded salamander (Aneides ferreus)
(11) Arboreal salamander (Aneides lugubris)
(12) California slender salamander (Batrachoseps attenuatus): See Special Closure (f)(1)
(13) Pacific slender salamander (Batrachoseps pacificus): See Special Closure (f)(1)
(14) Relictual slender salamander (Batrachoseps relictus): See Special Closure (f)(1)
(15) Dunn’s salamander (Plethodon dunni)
(16) Ensatina salamander (Ensatina eschscholtzii)

Frogs and Toads

(17) Western toad (Bufo boreas)
(18) Woodhouse’s toad (Bufo woodhouseii)
(19) Red-spotted toad (Bufo punctatus)
(20) Great Plains toad (Bufo cognatus)
(21) Great Basin spadefoot toad (Scaphiopus (Spea) intermontana)
(22) Couch’s spadefoot toad (Scaphiopus (Spea) couchii)
(23) California chorus frog (Pseudacris (Hyla) cadaverina)
(24) Pacific chorus frog (Pseudacris (Hyla) regilla)
(25) Northern leopard frog (Rana pipiens)
(26) Southern leopard frog (Rana yutricularia)
(27) Rio Grande leopard frog (Rana berlandieri)
(28) Bullfrog (Rana catesbeiana)

(b) Open season: All year. The season closures in Chapter 3 (District Trout and Salmon District General Regulations and Special Regulations) do not apply to fishing for amphibians with methods other than hook and line (see sections 7.00 and 7.50(a)(2)).

(c) Limit: The daily bag and possession limit for each of the amphibian species listed in subsection (a), above, is four except for bullfrogs, which have no daily bag or possession limit.

(d) Hours: Amphibians may be taken at any time of day or night.

(e) Methods of take:

(1) Amphibians may be taken only by hand, hand-held dip net, or hook and line, except bullfrogs may also be taken by lights, spears, gigs, grabs, paddles, bow and arrow, or fishing tackle.

(2) It is unlawful to use any method or means of collecting that involves breaking apart of rocks, granite flakes, logs, or other shelters in or under which amphibians may be found.

(f) Special closures:

(1) No slender salamanders (Batrachoseps spp.) may be taken from Inyo and Mono counties and from the Santa Rosa Mountains, Riverside County.


If a pet store says it, it must be true right?
cambiopacifico
Member
81 posts
81 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 19:59


Excellent. Thank You so much. I can catch four PTF's then.

But what are peoples opinions on if a person SHOULD or not?

Is wild catching local species for pets common?

I have many times when I was a child, whatever I could catch in my Los Angeles concrete jungle backyard. But I always let them go and it was not like I had a fully planted healthy vivarium for them to go in anyways. So now that I am pushing 31 I am really interested in a 'native' (at least local, gathered) environment with lots of plants and very limited 'other'(as in, 1 species of frog[PTF] and 1 species of fish[shiner, shad]). There is enough fruit flies in San Diego that I need not worry about that and I already have cricket rearing experience. haha


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cherisse
Member
1536 posts
1536 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 20:07 · Edited by: cherisse


it is best to avoid wild caught specimens if at all possible. this depletes the wild populations.

there are many dedicated enthusiasts out there who breed species of tree frogs. captive bred specimens would fair better then WC also. CB frogs do not have the parasite loads that WC frogs do.

CB frogs are more easy to acclimate into a captive lifestyle then WC.

finding a breeder of PTF may be challenging though, may I suggest the following links to find breeders:

faunaclassifieds.com (classifieds section)
kingsnsnake.com (classifieds section)
dendroboard.com (tree frog - classifieds section)

good luck! and welcome to the board!


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jesse kooiman
Member
1079 posts
1079 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 20:48


Tony C. had some last year. You wouldn't want to release any regilla from out of state as the species has been split (I guess for some time now) into a dizzying array of species/subspecies. Below cut/pasted from another forum. Thanks Frogeyes!


You will not be able to identify the species by means of photos or other casual morphological means.

DNA was used to establish that there are four distinct taxa involved. All four (including three additional subspecies names) were recognized decades ago on the basis of morphometry [relative body measurements], call differences, and other traits. The DNA confirmed the seven currently recognized subspecies belonged to three populations which do not normally interbreed with one another [species]. Because the entire ranges were not tested, the exact boundaries are still uncertain, and there are currently no easy-to-use methods to differentiate them from one another.

In southeastern Oregon, as well as Idaho, Montana, much of California, and probably southeastern BC, the species is P.sierra.

Most of the OR Cascades and coast, and points north and northeast are P.regilla.

Those from Palm Springs would be P.hypochondriaca hypochondriaca.

Until recently, the recognized forms were:
Pseudacris regilla regilla
P.regilla pacifica
P.regilla curta
P.regilla hypochondriaca
P.regilla sierra
P.regilla palouse
P.regilla cascadae
Recent field guides generally make little mention of these, except those dealing with the southernmost forms P.regilla curta and P.regilla hypochondriaca.

The recent relevant paper is here:
http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/511.pdf
Recuero, E., Í. Marínez-Solano, G. Parra-Olea, and M. García-París. 2006a Phylogeography of Pseudacris regilla (Anura: Hylidae) in western North America, with a proposal for a new taxonomic rearrangement. Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 39(2):293-304.

One critical error to account for in this paper, which the authors later corrected, was misplacing the type locality of P.regilla in northern California. The type locality had previously been identified as Fort Vancouver, WA. Thus, what they call P.pacifica is corrected to P.regilla. What they call P.regilla is corrected to P.sierra.

The correction:
http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/599.pdf
Recuero, E., Í. Marínez-Solano, G. Parra-Olea, and M. García-París. 2006b. Corrigendum to “Phylogeography of Pseudacris regilla (Anura: Hylidae) in western North America, with a proposal for a new taxonomic rearrangement.” Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 41(2):511.

The forms now recognized are:
Pseudacris regilla [composed of the former P.r.regilla and P.r.pacifica, and at least some P.r.cascadae]
Pseudacris sierra [composed of the former P.r.sierra, and P.r.palouse, and probably some P.r.cascadae]
Pseudacris hypochondriaca hypochondriaca
Pseudacris hypochondriaca curta

Some websites have updated the names and distributions already:
P.sierra
Sierran Treefrog (Pseudacris sierra) - FactSheet
P.hypochondriaca
Baja California Treefrog (Pseudacris hypochondriaca) - FactSheet
P.regilla
Northern Pacific Treefrog (Pseudacris regilla) - FactSheet

I need this, as it may help to determine the ranges of P.regilla and P.sierra more precisely, especially in Canada, where P.sierra is not yet recorded formally:

Ripplinger, J. I., and R. S. Wagner. 2004. Phylogeography of northern populations of the Pacific treefrog, Pseudacris regilla. Northwestern Naturalist 85(3):118-125.

I have this as a photocopy, and haven't found it online as a pdf. It's the paper which established the various subspecies, using largely morphological data:

Jameson, D. L., J. P. Mackey, and R. C. Richards. 1966. The systematics of the Pacific tree frog, Hyla regilla. Proceedings of the California Academy of Sciences, Fourth Series 33(19):551-620.


jesse?
macspoison
Member
6331 posts
6331 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 22:17


Man, I better put my mantellas back then..

I dont think a few from the local area will hurt. Maybe try some tadpoles and see how they do. I got my start with local grays and I can tell ya, there are still plenty around. Follow the law and take some notes. Make it fun.
Mac


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FwoGiZ
Member
1392 posts
1392 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2011 22:37


people are going crazy about this....
some animals are just way too far from extinction for it to be a threat to pick em up as pets
i would think pacifics are among these

if someone would think its kewl to go catch some atelopus as pets, then that would totally be another story, OBVIOUSLY.....

i try to govern all my choices in my life based on "common sense" and "logical" backed by "quality informations"
you, gathering information here, is a good step regarding the quality information, now i ll leave the "common sense & logical" thing up to you
i think you get me? go grab these before they get squished


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I've had this spring peeper for over 4 years..!
cambiopacifico
Member
81 posts
81 posts

# Posted: 27 Feb 2011 01:09


Thanks for all the answers and insight everyone. I will update with what, if anything, occurs.




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Tony C
Member
797 posts
797 posts

# Posted: 27 Feb 2011 07:36


Tony C. had some last year.

I wound up keeping my group, they are too much fun. I don't see any issues with taking them from the wild, they are plentiful, hardy, and acclimate very well to captivity. I have never had one refuse food, even minutes after capture.

sschind
Member
198 posts
198 posts

# Posted: 27 Feb 2011 13:40 · Edited by: sschind


In most cases laws like this are not meant to prevent a person from going out and collecting a few or even a dozen specimens to keep in a vivarium. They are in place to prevent people from going out and collecting hundreds or even thousands for whatever reasons.

I feel that there is no reason why a person should feel bad about collecting a few specimens to keep in a vivarium as long as you do every thing to keep them properly. I wouldn't hesitate for one second to set up a vivarium with native species collected from the wild as long as there is no evidence that said species is on the decline. Some will contend that all amphibian species are on the decline but when a pond by my house has has so many spring peepers in it that I have to keep my windows closed in the spring just so I can hear my TV there is no way on God's green earth that you are going to convince me that taking a half a dozen for my own pets is going to have an impact.

I am certainly not advocating that you break any laws. Apparently your laws say you can take four as long as you have a valid fishing license. I would suggest you stick to that stipulation if for no other reason than keeping your conscience clear. This is something that obviously is important to you otherwise you would have just gone out and done it rather than posting here.

If you want to do this I say go ahead and do it. If you are going to set them up the way you are describing then do it without any guilty feelings and enjoy them and don't let anyone bring you down about it.


Steve Schindler
dcravens
Member
804 posts
804 posts

# Posted: 27 Feb 2011 14:39


Yea a small group, especially if tadpoles is not going to be a big deal. I doubt taking some would be considered an additive form of mortality to the native population.

Most states allow you to take the common species (those not listed as threatened, etc) as long as you have a valid fishing/hunting license and are not on state/federal lands when doing so (usually they impose a creel limit like they do on fish as well) However, almost all states have laws against releasing them or selling them, that's the big no no.


If a pet store says it, it must be true right?
macspoison
Member
6331 posts
6331 posts

# Posted: 28 Feb 2011 04:53


Amen.

11 yrs ago this spring I bought a ticket to San Diego and bought a 10 day fishing permit and drove out to the Anza Borregos. I collected 1.1 rosy boas and 3.3 banded geckos.. The rosy boas are with me still, have never refused a meal and have produced every year since. Just over 60 babies in all. Tim Rainwater purchased the white banded geckos many yrs ago. Nothing is more fun then being the one who picks them, raises them and sees them live long, healthy lives.

By the way, I saw 4 boas that night, 2 were smashed on the road.

Enjoy them while you can. Who knows when this whole thing will come crashing down..
Mac


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cambiopacifico
Member
81 posts
81 posts

# Posted: 28 Feb 2011 16:10


Again, Thank You to everyone. I have definitely made up my mind.


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