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talk to the frog / General / Mass Die Off any ideas
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tonymontanaflows
Member
79 posts
79 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 04:31


Between March and just last week all my herps have passed away
4 WC 2m/2f marbled salamanders i've had since 8/06
1 WC fowler's toad i've had since metamorph 8/07
1 CB male tomato i've had since a metamorph 12/06

the species where housed separately in similar setups: plastic tubs with layered sand, charcoal, 1in packed topsoil floor, and a loose top layer of coco cypress mulch, topsoil and leaf litter. the salamander tank was originally setup around 1/06 and up until this Febuary i did a complete coco fiber replacement due to acidity concerns(dieing worms, tank did have some shredded sphagnum moss). all tanks had pill/sowbug, millipede, springtail, and red wrigglers that did alot of cleanup.

the salamanders where the first to go from the beginning of March till beginning of May. The first 2 were runts and didn't show any abnormal behavior or anything remarkable on their corpses. The last one to die however exhibited some type of rear paralysis or lethargy during its last days.

The toad was next at the end of May.it too displays some rear paralysis or lethargy during its last days.

My tomato passed 6/10. It seemed to have gone blind 3 weeks prior to it's death. It was going through a shed during this time. It's eyes looked fine, but it went from burrowing, and keeping under /in it's log and tube hide to being out in the open and bumping and rubbing against the side of the tank. This particular tomato also had an atrophied right leg since a baby due to tangling during shipment and was never a hopper but now started to due so in panic. I did manage to tweezer feed and it did poop during this blindness. It died rather normal position nose against the side of the tank.

Any ideas what may have caused this? possible culprits:

1)waxworms - supposedly high fat can cause blindness. i always have issues finding a good batch of them but found a decent batch March. I wouldn't say i overfeed them since despite the batch being decent my fridge was a little to cold so most of them died before a significant amount could have been eaten

2)plastic leaching from tank, spray bottle and water jugs

3)bad crickets, earthworms, pill/sowbugs, nightcrawlers. the only noticeable problem i had was in the salamander tank with earthworms dieing due to what i believe acidic old substrate. the tomato's tank was never changed since 12/06 and didn't have such problems also the after the 2/09 substrate replacement in the salamander tank no more earthworm deaths. crickets that lived long enough molted fine, any retarded bought or seen cricket were thrown out before fed and the pillbugs are literally indestructable

4) bad herptivite... expiration date was 6/09 stopped using it prior to last week in may. looked normal no moisture, mold, etc. Rep-Cal mentions no risk of vitamin a poisoning. my rep-cal d3 is good.

5) bad reptisafe dechlorinator. forgot how long i had it always stored in a dark place. for water i fill a gallon poland spring jug let it sit for a day add about 15 drops shake add about another 15 drops shake. and the occasional on the spot spray bottle fill er up.

5) bad flukers orange. bought around feb. all the bugs seems to be doing fine on it

tl;dr
amphibs died, toad and salamander with rear paralysis lethargy, tomato frog went blind with normal looking eyes


2.0 Tomato Frog (D. guineti)
0.0.4 Bumblebee Toad (M. stelzneri)
froggz37
Member
968 posts
968 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 04:51


I'm going to go a different way with this and ask, what cleaners do you use, have you just had your carpets cleaned or had your furniture/drapes professionally cleaned? Does your area spray insecticides? Is there a possibility of a neighbor spraying herbicide/pesticide while one of your windows were open?

Were your cleaning bugs purchased or wild caught? What size enclosures did you have? What was your feeding/dusting schedule?

tonymontanaflows
Member
79 posts
79 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 05:36


only use water damped rag to dust my furniture. occasionally use freebreeze but rarely in the same room and if so directly on whatever i'm spraying. my neighbors and myself all have our front lawns treated with what looks like little pills.

pillbugs,springtails,millipedes are collected outside my backyard from a compost area i setup. it's not enclosed think more like a 1ft deep x 2ft hole filled with leaves covered by a piece of wood. really haven't had to collect from here in a year since they breed well in the tanks. by this compost area i can find garter snakes, redback salamanders, and wood frogs during certain parts of the year. i also purchase about 50 each of pill/sowbugs around november from wardsci.com every year

crix,red wrigglers, nightcrawlers, waxworms all bought from either pet stores or bait shops

feeding is complicated since i vary the food, but i dust every other week 1 week off between the herptivite and calcium. the salamanders and tomato seemed to prefer pillbugs and worms since they are slower while the toad enjoyed chasing crickets

frog and toad tank similar in size to 10 gal but wider. salamander tank about a 20long but shorter and wider. temps the past months 76 during winter to about 65 at night with my window open. The toad did burry himself beginning of feb to beginning of april


2.0 Tomato Frog (D. guineti)
0.0.4 Bumblebee Toad (M. stelzneri)
bschwinn
Member
2594 posts
2594 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 05:47


Just a quick note, Fabreeze is toxic to birds, something to consider, Bill

gothaicus
Member
949 posts
949 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 07:06


Just a quick note, Fabreeze is toxic to birds, something to consider, Bill
Febreze makes my lungs collapse. I cannot imagine its good for any living thing to be around.

I too had a mass die off many moons ago. Still don't know what happened. You might not know unless you have some necropsies done by a vet.


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Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 12:27


Could possibly be chytrid from the symptoms you describe.

daystorm
Member
412 posts
412 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 15:41


Could be calcium deficiency too. The caltrate stuff was said to have expired this year, but I know for a fact that you can have that stuff for two years before it's expiry date. That stuff is really only good for six months.

Also, the orange flukers stuff could potentially been part of the cause. The stuff dries out a little, the crystals get onto the crickets and when the frog ingest the crickets, the stuff rehydrates.

The only way to know for sure is to have an autopsy done. See how much the vet will charge. Mine doesn't charge anything for them.

Sorry for your losses.


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tonymontanaflows
Member
79 posts
79 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 15:50


yeah the last salamander and frog did have some chytrid like symptoms with the lethargy and/or back leg paralysis. the tomato on the other hand was active till the day he died totally didn't expect him to die just thought i'd have to take extra care since he seemingly went blind. none manifested any skin issues though and the tomato had a normal shed last month

being a fungus can tank conditions cause chytrid or is a vector like another infected animal or prey item required? i normally get my crickets from a little pet store that actually doesn't sell any herps, but bought the waxworms and about 2 dozen crickets from a petco store. maybe cross contamination from there?


2.0 Tomato Frog (D. guineti)
0.0.4 Bumblebee Toad (M. stelzneri)
the other jerryb
Member
16 posts
16 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 15:53


Sorry for your loss Tony. Could be a million things. Without a necropsy though, your just gonna get a ton of guesses and what ifs. The way your describing your set ups and regiment makes it even harder to pin point because it sounds like good husbandry.

Burn what cant be bleached and reused. (soil, sticks, etc.)
10% bleach wash what can be saved, including your husbandry tools, (tanks, hand misters, etc) and try again.

Lemme know when your ready, you pay shipping and I'll send you a couple frogs to get you back on your feet.

Jerry

macspoison
Member
6331 posts
6331 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 18:19


Look at that! See..you would never get that from the Other, other jerryB!

So, these frogs you would be giving him..they are not like deformed in any way. The kind you find others gifting?!

Thats pretty damn cool if you ask me.
Mac


CinCityReptileShow.com
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Northeast Tropical Pet & Aquarium (Harrison ME)
bschwinn
Member
2594 posts
2594 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 20:33


Now Mac , handicapped frogs need good homes too.

tonymontanaflows
Member
79 posts
79 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 20:35


LOL thanks for the offer jerry. got all my tanks and stuff clean and now raising a baby emperor newt. i'm looking to get another tomato,asian chubby, toad, or possibly a pacman. something a year old captive would be great since i have a tub of nightcrawlers in the fridge and the newt is way to small to eat them.

a little deformity is cool too my tomato's baby leg made him unique. he was lopsided and had a weird walk and burrowed him self lopsided as well but was a great frog. going to miss him croaking along to heavy metal


RIP STUMPY 12/06-6/09


2.0 Tomato Frog (D. guineti)
0.0.4 Bumblebee Toad (M. stelzneri)
macspoison
Member
6331 posts
6331 posts

# Posted: 16 Jun 2009 20:49


O' I have a few froglets that came with lips and backs and eyes that didnt work right in my little freak show section. I have a 16oz container in the freezer as well. But mine were not gifted to me..

But honestly, what a cool offer from JerryB. Just goes to show.
Mac


CinCityReptileShow.com
NortheastReptileExpo.com
Northeast Tropical Pet & Aquarium (Harrison ME)
Frogbert
Moderator
2424 posts
2424 posts

# Posted: 17 Jun 2009 01:58


I agree that it is a cool offer...Jerry is a pretty nice fella...Just don't ask the police.


"Lead a life of purpose, Kindness being the first." ME

"The life of the individual has meaning only in so far as it aids in the making the life of every living thing nobeler and more beautiful" Albert Einstein
macspoison
Member
6331 posts
6331 posts

# Posted: 17 Jun 2009 02:56


Right, keep the police away. I would like to get the band back together..
Mac


CinCityReptileShow.com
NortheastReptileExpo.com
Northeast Tropical Pet & Aquarium (Harrison ME)
the other jerryb
Member
16 posts
16 posts

# Posted: 17 Jun 2009 05:35


going to miss him croaking along to heavy metal
Dude, now your really breakin my heart.
Glad to hear your your getting up and going again though. Offer stands, just remind me if your interested. Sorry I couldnt be more help as to why the originals died. Keep up the good fight!

But honestly, what a cool offer from JerryB. Just goes to show.
Jerry is a pretty nice fella
I've known him all my life and he is a negative jerk who never offers a word of advice about his coveted trade secrets on the complexities of breeding these highly complicated species. Honestly, I think it is very, very hard to mimic a mudpuddle in captivity. I've heard he has a underground breeding facility where he has triple rainchambers set up in zero gravity, hooked up to pressure systems with pulsating shock waves and....could you just give me my damn password please frogbert. I emailed for it yesterday and....cptnbosshogatyahoodotcom...he's dumb and cant spell either.
Jerry

Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 17 Jun 2009 05:41


I feel for you bro. Lost a leo colony once to crypto. Had to put down a bunch of my carpet pythons because of IBD.


Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

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k412
Member
1001 posts
1001 posts

# Posted: 17 Jun 2009 16:39


I'm sorry for your loss.
If none of your animals were treated I would suspect chytrid.
Feeding insects or worms found outside has a high risk of feeding pesticides to your animals as well.
Better luck with the new ones.
Sterilize everything really well before introducing any new amphibians.


Nature has no mercy, people have the option.
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ScurvyGoat
Member
658 posts
658 posts

# Posted: 17 Jun 2009 22:11


Is it just the orange Fluker's stuff? I use a green stuff that's a different brand. I'm afraid of using it if it could kill my lil guys!


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Dakhota
Member
3302 posts
3302 posts

# Posted: 18 Jun 2009 19:19


I too am thinking chytrid. I really recommend treating new frogs for it. Also, if you are planning to get more . . .make sure to completely sanitze everything . . .let all the decor and tanks dry completely (leave them dry for a few days if you can) and make sure to replace all of the substrate with brand new stuff. Check out the Chytrid posts on this site.


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tonymontanaflows
Member
79 posts
79 posts

# Posted: 19 Jun 2009 06:28


considering chytrid is a fungus is it possible for it to grow in a tank under the right conditions? my substrate was old but was pretty much self sustaining with all the bugs and i would stir it up every other week. never had any funky smells or mold besides a few very rare shroom caps that appeared over the years. i felt the sal tank had some acidity problems due to the worms dying, but none of the sals ever exhibited any skin issues alive or dead. all the tanks where maintained at room temp which would be anywhere from 65-80, no external heating or lighting and i probably kept the tanks dryer than most keepers, the toad and sallys were a little hydrophobic

ScurvyGoat > i've personally never seen flukers orange or the gells dry up and stick to any prey but anythings possible. all the critters in my tank eat the stuff and i haven't had any die offs..actually my pillbug population is booming which is a plus for my new little newt

hmm so i think i might write this off as chytrid introduced by crickets from petco. i recall the employee that got me the crickets was doing maintenance to all the herp cages when i bought them. got a few empty tanks so i might consider culturing or buying a bulk load of pinheads for the little newt since my normal cricket source without any in store herps only carries med-large.


2.0 Tomato Frog (D. guineti)
0.0.4 Bumblebee Toad (M. stelzneri)
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