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talk to the frog / General / Poison Dart Frog vs. Mantella
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Petfreak1321
Member
519 posts
519 posts

# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 05:53


I am torn as to which I want. I do seem to lean more toward PDF's and more specifically Tinc's, but I not sure. I like the black and blue look.

Help.

I just recently got a 12 x 12 x 18 exo terra setup with sphagnum moss as substrate. I have a 100 gallon terrarium that I am trying to find that perfect combination of plants before I add frogs to it, they will eventually be moved into that.

I would like to breed them, but that is not my goal. (how do you sex them, other than calling males)

I would like to get more than 1 or 2


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MegophryidaeMan
Member
2535 posts
2535 posts

# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 08:44


Tincs would need more ground space. I would go with a thumbnail species like the ventrimaculatus (which share a lot of the color with the tincs) or imitator. Both are fairly easy to care for and are pretty bold and available for purchase. That's my 2 cents


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Petfreak1321
Member
519 posts
519 posts

# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 15:40


The plan would be to put them in my 100 Gallon (36" x 18" x 36") Terrarium which I am making more naturalistic.

I only plan to get 1 (maybe 2) at a time for the exo-terra anyway. I would probably just use the small tank as quarintine/breeding tank.

I basically want something that I could eventually have a "colony" of in the 100 Gallon.

What PDF's or Mantella's would work? I don't want anything too small (1"+ I guess)


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Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 15:47


If you are planning on getting more than 2 then I would stay away from Tincs. Both male and females tend to be very aggressive towards the same sex and they are best kept in sexed pairs. You could possibly get away with it in a 100 gallon tank, but may still see some aggression issues. Personally I would go with a group of Phyllobates as they are quite large and do well in groups. Either Terribilis or Bicolor. Or you could go with Leucs as they do well in groups as well. I can't really comment on Mantellas as I have no experience with them, but I have heard they can be quite flighty when compared to dart frogs and would require a larger tank. Maybe Nuggs or someone can chime in as I know he keeps Mantellas.

KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 17:58


The main differences in my opinion are:

Mantellas require lower temperatures and THEY WILL DIE if they get too warm, this can happen very quickly and unexpectedly. Mantellas must be kept as close to 70degrees as possible. Anything much above 75 can kill them.

Mantellas are smaller, usually harder to find captive bred in some species, and they require smaller prey. Some of the smaller species of mantellas may have trouble taking pinhead crickets, whereas many of the larger species of darts have no trouble with even week old crickets.

Also mantellas tend to be much more shy. So in a large enclosure you may find it harder to find them.

If I may suggest... Leucomelas would make a great frog for that size enclosure. They aren't shy, they are very active and visible. They have a very pleasant call. Plus, they usually do not have as much social dominance as other species.


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joseph
Member
101 posts
101 posts

# Posted: 20 Oct 2007 22:55


I've heard from people who keep mantellas, mantellas actually can take bigger prey for their body size than darts will. So while a big tinc may consider certain crickets too big...a much smaller mantella will go fo rthem.

Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 21 Oct 2007 01:25


Yeah and a Terribilis will eat a full sized cricket. I've seen it many times.

Petfreak1321
Member
519 posts
519 posts

# Posted: 21 Oct 2007 15:04


The more research I do they more I read "As they become sexually mature females will demonstrate aggression towards one another" for most SP. of dart frogs

My tank may be large but I would hate to take the chance.

And I agree, Leucomelas seem to be the best as far as grouping, to bad I really want dark colors (blue, black, red) I will still consider them


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Petfreak1321
Member
519 posts
519 posts

# Posted: 21 Oct 2007 19:13


How many Tinctorius or Azureus or Leucomelas could I put in the SMALL (12L x 12W x 18H) Male and/or Female?

How many Tinctorius or Azureus or Leucomelas could I put in the LARGE (36L x 18W x 36H) Male and/or Female?


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Ragdoll
Member
2080 posts
2080 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 01:18 · Edited by: Ragdoll


The small tank, I assume is an Exo from the measurements, is not really oriented correctly for them and is only 11 gal. I would say 1 of any of them in that tank (two if subadults).

In the larger tank if it is all one area then with the Tincs and Azureus you can really only have one female, but 3-4 males would be ok. With the Leucs you wouldn't need to worry about male/female and could have lots.

Now what you could do is either divide the large tank with plexi and have two sets in there, it can be done with the divider hardly noticeable. Or perhaps you could make some type of obstruction (like a waterway) that they couldn't cross in the center of the tank and have a group on either side. Of course you have to make sure it is a safe barrier (not deep or fast water etc).

I'm in the same boat as you are, I really wanted a group but like the Cobalts. I could just get a group of froglets and then as they mature sort them out and sell off any extra females. Or go with the Leucs.

If you are able to maintain the lower temps of Mantellas there are some really beautiful ones with many of the same bold colors of darts. In our area the temps are fine except in the summer our temps may be over 80 in the house, so I would need to keep them in the basement and then actually have to heat the tank year round.

Here's one of my favorite Mantella pages: http://www.amphibian.co.uk/mantella.html


Bridget

0.0.2 Red Eyes (RETF)
1.2.1 Crested Geckos
1.2 Corn snakes (Sunglow Motley-Stripe, Amel, Sunglow Motley)
0.1.0 English Mastiff
2.2.0 Cats (Ragdoll, Himalayan)(Tiger and MainCoon-like)
KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 01:47 · Edited by: KittenClaw22


2 of any species of darts can live comfortably for their entire life in an 11 gallon enclosure.

You could do 5-6 leucs in the 100 gallon easily. Some people would probably do more to push the limits but I think that would be a nice number. It's probably not great for breeding. They typically do better in duos or trios because competing females will destroy the eggs of rivals in I believe any species. If you are looking to breed then sticking to a single pair in the smaller enclosure would be better.

The large enclosures are for looks. Show off tanks.


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Ragdoll
Member
2080 posts
2080 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 02:21


2 of any species of darts can live comfortably for their entire life in an 11 gallon enclosure.

I'd have to disagree with that as far as the Azureus and Tincs are concerned especially with the orientation of the tank in question. They are larger, ground dwellers.

The tank is a 12x12 footprint and not a standard 10 gal which would be 20x10. So as far as ground space in concerned, the tank in question has 25% less ground area than a normal 10 gal. Maybe two Leucs would be ok in it as they climb as well?

It could certainly be used as a grow tank or for quarantining.


Bridget

0.0.2 Red Eyes (RETF)
1.2.1 Crested Geckos
1.2 Corn snakes (Sunglow Motley-Stripe, Amel, Sunglow Motley)
0.1.0 English Mastiff
2.2.0 Cats (Ragdoll, Himalayan)(Tiger and MainCoon-like)
KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 02:38 · Edited by: KittenClaw22


Considering I have kept this species... Ragdoll I am not going to argue with you. In my opinion there was no reason for you to reply with your argumentative post. You stated your opinion, I stated mine, which I believe I am entitled to. I don't really see the need to substantiate my opinion.

If you don't want to take my word for it do a forum search or look at some breeders set ups but most people keep breeding pairs in 10 gallons or less.

You can increase the floorspace by attaching cork and driftwood to the sides, and my azereus do climb onto the grapevine I have in there.

Here is the only example I bothered to look up:
http://www.vivariumforum.com/?q=Dart-Frog-Vivarium -Rack-Construction-Log

And here is a caresheet from a source that I personally respect:
http://www.amphibiancare.com/frogs/caresheets/pois ondartfrog.html


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Petfreak1321
Member
519 posts
519 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 03:06


Ok then, how does this sound:

I will get 2 Azureus in the SMALL tank, if they breed I could sort out the babies M/F and put 1 female and 3-4 males in the LARGE tank and sell the rest.

-OR-

I could put 2 Azureus in the SMALL tank and some Leucomelas in the LARGE tank.

My favorite order between the 3 PDF's is:
Azureus
Tinctorius
Leucomelas

and yes the SMALL tank is the Exo-Terra Medium


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KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 03:13


I think I'd be happier and less worried with leucs in the large tank.


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Ragdoll
Member
2080 posts
2080 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 04:08


Kitten, because I said that I didn't agree doesn't make my post argumentative. And further to say that I had no reason to reply would then indicate that you should not have replied after my post (posted before yours) in which I stated my opinion. You really can't have it both ways.

Regarding your opinion, you are entitled to it, no one is disagreeing with that, but on a forum there is discussion. People don't always agree but as long as things are civilized there is no problem, you shouldn't take someone disagreeing or offering a different view as a personal attack.

As far as your links I am confused, the first one is of a rack system but does nothing to further your point as it doesn't state sizes. The second one is a "blanket" dart care sheet and not specific to any of them. Matter of a fact on that page it states:

Generally it's best to start with an aquarium in the 15 to 30 gallon range ... A standard 20 gallon aquarium that measures 24 inches long by 12 inches wide by 16 inches high is usually large enough for two to four adult frogs...Terrestrial dart frogs, such as D. azureus or P. terribilis, should be given a terrarium that offers plenty of floor space

So with your own reference it doesn't support your statement.

My only point was that the tank that was in question is a much smaller floor space than a standard 10 gal. I am quite well aware of the fact that breeders use 10 gal tanks, but this one is a much smaller footprint (144 sq in vs. 200 sq in). That was all I was saying.


Bridget

0.0.2 Red Eyes (RETF)
1.2.1 Crested Geckos
1.2 Corn snakes (Sunglow Motley-Stripe, Amel, Sunglow Motley)
0.1.0 English Mastiff
2.2.0 Cats (Ragdoll, Himalayan)(Tiger and MainCoon-like)
KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 16:40 · Edited by: KittenClaw22


Ragdoll, stop, I don't want to have to ask a moderator to view this thread. This petty arguing is what caused most of the experienced, knowledgeable users to leave this forum in the first place. So please for the sake of everyone on the forum, stop arguing. You aren't getting anywhere. You don't keep dart frogs anyway, I do.


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Rick Cabrera
Member
155 posts
155 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 18:44


Whoa Whoa Whoa. Guys calm it down a little. Kittenclaw....ragdoll did not even come close to attacking you. Not even close. The statement he disagreed with had nothing to do with you personally. He was talking about the set ups. He stated his opinion which is fine in this forum right? I dont know if there is some past history between the two of you or something but the defensive way your speaking to ragdoll is reall unappropriate and uncalled for. He did not show you any disrespect so i think he deserves the same consideration. I am new to the forum and would not like to see a debate become a fight when it was HARDLY a debate to begin with. So guys just relax.


2 Red eyes, 1 albino red eye, 3 Bumble bee Dart frogs, 2 Green and Black Auratus
Frog Style
Member
2277 posts
2277 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 19:02


That's what I was thinking. Kitten gave a statement, Ragdoll gave a statement. Without seirous doubt, you can disagree, you just don't ever like people disagreeing with what you say.

So what? Let it be. Ragdoll did nothing, you just dispise people disagreeing with you, and if they do they're wrong.

Pet - I'd say go with a PDF. I like them , though. I heard that tincs are a good beginner frog anyway. Let us know what you pick! I am curious


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Hayden
Member
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2943 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 19:07


I am quite well aware of the fact that breeders use 10 gal tanks, but this one is a much smaller footprint (144 sq in vs. 200 sq in).

I would have to agree. This amount of floor space is much too small for any Tinc or Azureus. A pair of vents or pumilio, maybe, but Tincs I'd say are out of the question for that size tank.

Ragdoll
Member
2080 posts
2080 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 20:49


Kitten, I am more than happy for anyone including the moderators to view this thread, obviously you see something that no one else does.

Rick, first I'm a "she" and second, this has happened before and given how it's happening again I guess it will continue, I seem to be the lucky one.

Petfreak, I think you should go with the ones you like best though just know that the small tank will not be a good size for the adult species you want. So IMO you could use it as a grow tank for some, then sort them before adding them to your large tank and continue that until you get the mix you want, selling off the extras, or go with a different species for the small tank.


Bridget

0.0.2 Red Eyes (RETF)
1.2.1 Crested Geckos
1.2 Corn snakes (Sunglow Motley-Stripe, Amel, Sunglow Motley)
0.1.0 English Mastiff
2.2.0 Cats (Ragdoll, Himalayan)(Tiger and MainCoon-like)
KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 20:53


Just please keep in mind all her opinions are googled, and she has no experience with darts or mantellas.


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Frog Style
Member
2277 posts
2277 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 21:01 · Edited by: Frog Style


Kitten - Why don't you stop? Now you're just provoking every agruement. You asked her to stop, why the hell can't you? How do you know she never owned darts? Just because she doesn't list it, doesn't mean she owned one -years- ago!

For christ sakes, you do NOT know if she is googling this, HELL you could be googling it. Why don't you both grow up and stop this petty agruement?

I mean, seriously. This is such childish BS.

However, sure you guys can give him ideas, but I think he can think for himself on what's right and what is wrong, to be honest. His thread should not be arguementive in anyway. You guys are being selfish and disrepectful. Leave this thread if you're going to agrue, ffs.

And just so you know: I emailed Charlie a few ago to complain about this thread. This is stupid to go into someone elses thread and harass ragdoll because she's pointing something out OR she's disagreeing with you. Give it a rest Kitten. Jesus!

Pet, I agree. Go with what you feel. It's your money, your life, YOUR pets..... If you want a tinc GO For it. If you want the other fella GO FOR IT. It's noones decision but you.


www.frogstyle.org
3.0.0 - D. Guineti
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KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 21:11


I know she hasn't because of past threads she has made asking questions of experienced keepers.

But I am done with this forum. I won't be posting here anymore.

Good luck to you all.

If anyone wants to ask a question you can do what a lot of people do and just email me directly. kittenclaw22@yahoo.com


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Frog Style
Member
2277 posts
2277 posts

# Posted: 22 Oct 2007 22:04


Just to let people know, I didn't want her to leave and I doubt anyone did... but I don't think pet wanted his thread hijack with bickering. ... we were merely trying to stop the agruement =(


www.frogstyle.org
3.0.0 - D. Guineti
1.0.0 - O. Septentrionalis
1.1.0 - H. Curtipes
0.0.3 - L. Caerulea
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0.0.1 - B. Orientalis
0.0.3 - T. Resinifictrix
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mve
Member
1732 posts
1732 posts

# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 00:04


What is the size of the 100 gallon? It seems pretty big. Sometimes they can be too big and there could be a problem with feedings, though the more bold species of darts get used to you coming to the tank and dropping in flies, and will come to where you drop them. Keep this in mind. If you were leaning toward leucs, you shouldn't have a problem. I do think the small tank you have might be a bit too small, and would go with a smaller PDF for that, look up some thumbnail species. These can be expensive, and are more for experienced keepers, but I love these. I was breeding pumilio's for a little bit and they were more hardy than people give them credit for.


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Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 00:19


Problem Solved... Anyone else want some Iron Fist?


We can never go back to the way it was...
Petfreak1321
Member
519 posts
519 posts

# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 00:56


I did not mean for there to be an arguement, I enjoy getting different opinions that is why I only google for pictures of some SP.

I value everyone's opinion, a take them all into account.

My favorite PDF's in order are: 1-Azureus, 2-Tinctorius, 3-Leucomelas
Since everyone is sating the Leuces are the best then I might just get them if available, But I am still leaning toward Azureus or Tincs

I am so torn as to what to get

Kittenclaw22: DON'T LEAVE

Ragdoll: you could use it as a grow tank for some, then sort them before adding them to your large tank and continue that until you get the mix you want, selling off the extras, or go with a different species for the small tank.
That is a good idea

mve: the 100 gallon is (36"L x 18"W x 36"H) I would like to get a bold SP not just for the food, but so that I can see them haha. That is why I don't want "thumbnails"


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Petfreak1321
Member
519 posts
519 posts

# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 00:59


Here is how I have the SMALL tank setup:
[img][/img]

The light is the R-Zilla mini reptile fixture, the only worry that I have is "This fixture includes two Desert 50 UVB compact fluorescent bulbs, delivering top quality light in a footprint of less than


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Frog Style
Member
2277 posts
2277 posts

# Posted: 23 Oct 2007 01:04


hey pet...where did you get that bark from? I want htat so bad in my Cuban's tank.. !


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3.0.0 - D. Guineti
1.0.0 - O. Septentrionalis
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0.0.3 - L. Caerulea
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0.0.1 - B. Orientalis
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