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talk to the frog / Help / Green Tree Frog with a Broken Leg
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evilgoodgurl
Member
10 posts
10 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 19:02


I've got a tree frog and i think he has a broken leg. I seen him fall off of the wall of my aquarium twice and when he fell he didn't move and just started shaking both times. i nudged him with my finger and he jumped onto a rock in the tank. i carefully picked him up to put him in a small critter carrier and one of his legs was "stuck" straight out. it was like he had no control of it. when i put him in my hand, he flipped over onto his back by accident and you could tell that he couldn't flip back over by himself. when i put him into the carrier, the leg eventually made it's way up under the body like normal, but it took a while. Since I put him in the critter carrier but he hasn't really moved at all and he hasn't eaten. i'm starting to get scared, i don't want him to die. there's no vet around that knows anything about frogs. is there anything that i can do to help him, or at least make him more comfortable?


-Jen
pollywog_uk
Member
650 posts
650 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 19:23


If it has damaged the limb there is little you can do, keep him in a small enclosure so he is close to his food, put him in a warm dark place and just keep an eye on him. Time is the greatest healer.
I would advise you add more large leafy plants in the vivarium so if he falls again they will break his fall or give him something to grab hold of on the way down.


evilgoodgurl
Member
10 posts
10 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 20:10


i use the bed-a-beast coconut husk substrate on the bottom of my tank. it is about 2-3 inches thick. i thought that this would provide padding. i have fake gree plants around inside the tank, but i am considering moving them cuz my boyfriend said that he seen one of the frog's legs get caught in one of the cuts of the leaf when they were trying to jump. what's the best type of plants to have in the tank and where should i put them? i have two tree frogs and one fire belly toad.


-Jen
KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 20:36


what's the best type of plants to have in the tank and where should i put them? i have two tree frogs and one fire belly toad.

It sounds as if you have a mixed species enclosure. The fire bellied toads secrete a toxin which can kill other creatures.

I very, very strongly suggest seperating the frogs and toad right away and giving them each new, steril vivariums.

I've got a tree frog and i think he has a broken leg. I seen him fall off of the wall of my aquarium twice and when he fell he didn't move and just started shaking both times.

It seems to me that the problem might have started before the fall.

I think he might have something serious wrong most likely due from the toad's toxins. I remind you, these can kill.


I would suggest quarentining him, and it sounds as if you have already done this. Monitor for a bowel movement, and make sure he has fresh, de-chorinated tepid water. Sometimes elevating the temperature of the water and enclosure slightly can help the frog to pass an impaction, and it aides in healing.

I strongly suggest finding a vet.

----

Bed a beast is a very good substrate for the tree frogs. Discard any substrate that the toad has been around, because it contains toxins. Thoroughly rinse the aquarium with very hot water, severel times.

Add a couple inches of all new bed a beast. Pothos is a good, hardy hard to kill plant to start with. I also suggest creeping fig ficus for a starter plant. These will do well with your tree frogs.

Severel sterilized branches for climbing, a nice sized water dish and you are set.

At least a 15 gallon to 20 gallon vivarium is suggest for two green tree frogs.

----

For the toad I suggest a 10 gallon aquarium with a thoroughly cleaned pea gravel substrate, severel inches of water should cover around 70% of the bottom of the tank. I suggest using a whisper 10i filter in the water, and change the water every 7-14 days to remove toxins.

A nice hiding cave and call it finished.


I cannot stress enough how badly you need to seperate these animals!!



evilgoodgurl
Member
10 posts
10 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 20:47


the place where i bought the animals had them both in the same cage along with clawed frogs and they have never had any problems. i have had the frogs for almost five months now. wouldn't i have seen problems a while ago?


-Jen
pollywog_uk
Member
650 posts
650 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 20:50 · Edited by: pollywog_uk


KittenClaw22> Regarding the toxicity of Bombina they are not as toxic as people think.

"Discard any substrate that the toad has been around, because it contains toxins."
"I suggest using a whisper 10i filter in the water, and change the water every 7-14 days to remove toxins."

The toxins produced by these toads do not build up in the way that a number of books will lead you to believe. A couple of people have said that the toxins build up and harm the toads, the reality is that it's the build up of ammonia etc. from the toads waste that harms them not the toxins.

I agree that if these animals are kept together they should be separated for a number of reasons. However unless the Treefrog has had a good chew on the Bombina, or stressed it to a level that encouraged it to release toxins which were then absorbed through the skin of the Treefrog it should not have harmed it.


evilgoodgurl
Member
10 posts
10 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 21:10


there is absolutely NO interaction between the tree frogs and the bombina. the toad is almost always in the water or under a log, and the tree frogs stay mainly on the walls or the leaves. the only time the tree frogs are even close to the toad is in the mornings when i find them on the water dish. it worries me about the toxins, but there is nothing i can do about it right now due to financial problems. how would the toxins affected my tree frogs's leg anyways?


-Jen
KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 21:38


Hey, if you want to believe the ignorant lies of ignorant sales men, be my guest.

Your animal obviously has a medical problem.

As I said, why do you think your frog "fell" off the glass? Frogs rarely fall.

So the toad never gets in the water that the frogs have access to?

I can guarentee that your frogs are coming in contact with the toxins if they are in the same enclosure.

If you don't want to take my word for it, do a search on this forum. You will find that these animals should never be mixed or similer problems could occur.

You want to believe that you are innocent and your frog just developed a spasming stumbling clumbsy act one day, be my guest. But the fact is that these animals are in mortal danger.

Seperate them or be prepared to lose your frogs lives.

No matter what that other poster says, they are highly toxic.

What he would like you to beleive: "Oh I know you've probably read this many other locations, and had personal experience, but really my opinion is much better than your own or any number of experts. TRUST me on this." Hah.


KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 21:41


I've given you the information you saught. Do with it what you will.

You came here saying, "My frog is dying, please help."

I said, "This is most likely the cause."

If you don't want to do anything about it, prepare yourself to lose your animals.

I am done posting on this topic.

Consult the many other threads on this topic if you would like more information.

Best of luck to you.


pollywog_uk
Member
650 posts
650 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 22:00 · Edited by: pollywog_uk


"No matter what that other poster says, they are highly toxic."

I'm not saying that they are not toxic, what I am saying is that their toxins are only released when they are stressed and that the idea of their toxins building up in the substrate and in the water is highly unlikely. As I said in my previous post if anything is building up in the enclosure it is from the waste the animals are producing that will harm them well before the toxins get to that level.

I may deal in Amphibians for a living but before being a "salesman" I'm primarily a hobbyist and make my living this way because of my passion for the animals. I have kept and bred Bombina for a number of years and am well aware of their toxicity. If you choose to ignore and take offense at my atempt to inform then that is your choice.

If you read my reply earlier I agree with you that they should be housed seperatly but it is as much for a number of other reasons such as the requirements of each species in order for them to thrive and the risk of either animal carrying parasites & disease that could affect the other.

"What he would like you to beleive: "Oh I know you've probably read this many other locations, and had personal experience, but really my opinion is much better than your own or any number of experts. TRUST me on this." Hah."

Tell me KittenClaw22 what makes an expert? Surely it is their experience with the subject in question? Perhaps you would like to tell me about your experience with Bombina toxicity?
I by no way claim to be an expert - many people do see me as such but I still have a lot to learn and always will have. If you could show me something that would prove that my personal experience of toxicity in Bombina is incorrect then I would be only too happy to accept your view point.


KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 22:16


I wasn't referring to you when I said that about "ignorant salesmen" I was referring to the pet shop that was mixing the species.

Pet stores mix species to save space, and therefore money. They will tell a customer almost anything to make a sale, and most of the time don't know the front of the frog from the back. They are making minimum wage, and don't give a frog turd about the animals or the customers. They just wanna put in their 8 hours and go home.

As for the toxins, I believe they release them constantly to at least some degree. While it may be true that they release them more heavily when stressed you will have to admit that being in a very small enclosure with two frogs of another species without a proper set up would likely cause them to be stressed.

Parasites, diseases, habitat, cleanliness and temperature all have a part in the severity of this issue and are why these animals need to be separated immediately as well as the toxins.

However, it is my opinion that the "spasms" and "falling" could be caused at least in part by the toxins in the frogs habitat and water.

And you will have to agree that if the FBT has been in this stressful environment for any period of time it will have to have secreted toxins onto the substrate, and therefore it is unhabitable for the GTF. As well as the fact that it has defecated and possibly spread more foreign parasites, bacteria, and etc.

The only safe way for any animal to live in this aquarium is for it to be thoroughly cleaned and all substrates or wood be replaced.

It is also my opinion that a 10 gallon aquarium is not large enough for 2 green tree frogs to live in happily, and I recommend discarding the bed a beast and replacing it with pea gravel and a 75% water set up for the fire bellied toad to live in alone.


KittenClaw22
Member
4924 posts4924 posts
# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 22:23


Here is one example of firebellied toad toxin:

http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread &forum=3&topic=3606&page=0#5

Last post my Josh.

There are several examples given by people on this forum in several different posts of claims of firebellied toad toxins, I suggest doing some research if you would like to learn more.

a number of books will lead you to believe

Almost every book on the topic will mention the toxins.

You are claiming that your own personal experience is much more important than any number of books.

As it is you who have a point to prove, I ask you to do so. Everyone seems to agree that FBTs release toxins. You claim otherwise.

It is an accepted fact in the amphibian hobby that FBT do indeed secrete toxins. You claim they do not unless stressed.

The burden of proof lies with you.


Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 22:56


Personally... it sounds more like your green tree frog was having a seizure... this can cause limbs to stiffen and stick straight out. It can also be the cause of the "fall". In this situation... I'd have to say that the cause of the seizure would be exposure to the toxins from the toad.

Separate all species to their own tank... keep the current sick one on it's own and pretty much just hope for the best.


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
pollywog_uk
Member
650 posts
650 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 23:04 · Edited by: pollywog_uk


"As for the toxins, I believe they release them constantly to at least some degree."

This has not been my experience, only when overly stressed from handling or being housed in unsuitable conditions (too high a temperature or too dry) have they shown signs of releasing toxin.




Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 23:17


Points have been made... possible reasons have been given... personal experience has been shared.

Don't let this become another one of those bickering battles of who's right and who's wrong.

Agree to disagree if you must. I'd take Pollywogs experience over sny number of outdated books that remain on the shelf.

Unless someone has a different possible cause outside of the topic of toxins... I would like to see this thread stop here. If I see another post trying to inflame a battle... I will remove it.


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
evilgoodgurl
Member
10 posts
10 posts

# Posted: 16 Apr 2006 23:24


i'm very greatful to all of your answers, i, in no way, wanted to start an argument between two other people. i respect all of your answers and have taken them all into account. like i said, i have no way of separating them at this time due to financial problems. i don't doubt that bombina's release toxins especially when stressed, and i agree with the fact that having two tree frogs in the same tank as the bombina, could have very well made him stressed. we clean the tank very regularly along with changing the water everyday. i am planning on separating the two species as soon as possible, but is there anything i can do in the meantime? and besides keeping my injured tree frog in seclusion and low stress is there anything else i can do for him?


-Jen
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