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talk to the frog / Help / dying american gree tree frog
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GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 16:48 · Edited by: Moderator


a friend suggested i come here with froggie questions so hi!

i'll try to make this short. i have 2 frogs - 1 white's and one american green - in a 20 gal high. they've been together in this tank for over a year with no problems. i have a water dish in the bottom (it's a rubbermaid thing about 8 in diameter and 2 in deep). it has a climbing rock in it so crickets and frogs alike can get out of the water easily.

a couple weeks ago i started noticing my american green laying as flat as he could on the rocks in the bottom of the tank and he appeared to not be breathing. i thought i'd lost him but when i reached in to pick him up he jumped away and started breathing again (well at least his "chin skin" was moving again). he has done this many times since then as well as sit with his butt in the water a lot. oh and a small dark brown 'wart' appeared on his back - you can see it a little on his right side in the first pic below.

today i came home to find him floating upside down in the water! i knew he was dead, but when i went to get him out i noticed his heart beating (but no apparent breathing) so i left him to die in peace. well several minutes later i looked in and he had flipped over on his stomach but still was floating motionless with his legs sticking out. appeared to be very close to the end. i was sitting here typing a few minutes later and saw him climb out of the water!!!! ever since then (about 20 minutes) he has been sitting in the position that you will find him in the pictures below. he is motionless and his heart was beating very rapidly but breathing was very slow. his clear 'eyelids' were half over his eyes andhis legs are suddenly very thin while his belly appears swollen or bloated. his heart rate has slowed, but breathing has not quickened.

is he a narcoleptic frog!? is he having coma-like 'episodes' and today he just happened to have one in the water!? someone suggested red leg but his belly and legs are not red and the tank is kept very clean. can anyone tell me what is happening to my frog!? i almost want him to die so that we will quit having these little 'night of the living dead' episodes!!

oh and the white's seems fine.

well the american green just moved his head a bit but still in the same position.

pictures:





any help is appreciated!

cynthia

spydergirl4594
Member
1607 posts
1607 posts

# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 17:11


Firs toff,welcome to the board,it svery nice to have you here! Second off, Mixing species is a definite no-no. A Whites Tree frog by itself requires a 20 gallon tank. And a Green Tree Frog is small enough for a Whites to eat(ive seen my whites eat a baby mouse before,so im sure he could fit a Green in there if he tried)I dont exactly know about what your Green is going through,but it may be possible having the Whites in the same tank finally stressed him out enough for him to die. Yes, animals can die from pure stress. Eventhough you saw no problems between the two before, its still very very possible. The other people on the board will be able to give you more advice about your Green and his illness,but they will all tell you the same thing i have just told you about the mixing of your frogs. Good luck anyhow,and agan,very nice to have you here!


-Sheryl
GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 17:25


thank you!

well the american green just got back in the water. he's swimming around in the water in circles, almost like he can't coordinate which direction to go. he keeps stopping and floating for a minute and looking dead and then "swimming" some more. he's floating right now and he just looks so dead. it's so sad.

soon after i got my frogs i realized that mixing them was a no-no. i always research animals before i get them and everything i read pretty much said 'as long as they don't eat each other it's fine' and the white's was small when i got it (at the same time i got the AG) so i figured if they "grew up" together they wouldn't have any problems. they used to have "croaking parties" where each one would take turn croaking. i can easily see now how this inability to determine territory in a small tank would cause a lot of stress. i also recently completely re-did the tank because a bromeliad died and the tank started looking bad. this lack of comfortable and well-known hiding places could have been a problem as well. i'm so sorry that he seems to be suffering so much.

he's just floating there now - hasn't moved in a couple minutes. *sigh*

tth_lee
Member
554 posts
554 posts

# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 18:53


I would recommend moving the green tree frog to a separate tank. Isolation would be best at this point if you want him to recover. In addition to that his illness might affect the White's tree frog, especially since they are sharing a water bowl.

Anyway, take care of him and I hope the best for him.

Thomas


Tom
1.0.0 Horned frog | Ceratophrys cranwelli
0.0.1 Golden fantail | Carassius auratus
1.1.0 Chinese fire-bellied newt | Cynops orientalis
1.0.0 Betta fish Betta splendens
My collection is small, but less is more :-
Anonymous


# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 19:04


thanks, thomas. i was wondering if i should seperate them. i will.
GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 19:05


oops i forgot to sign in - the above 'Anonymous' is ME!!

froglove42
Member
194 posts
194 posts

# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 19:21


I agree complwith thomas. I would put him in a sterile tank with some damp paper towels as substrate and a clean water dish. You gave a good description, but I still am unsure what is causing it. I tend to think it might be impaction from eating some of the smaller gravel in the tank, but I'm no vet. Here is a good frog illness site:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Meadows/5741/disease.html

I'm looking up some others, but they all say the same general stuff. (I bet you already know that.)

What live plants do you have in their tank? Maybe poison plant?

I dunno, i'll think some more...

froglove42
Member
194 posts
194 posts

# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 19:36


http://members.aol.com/sirchin/prevent.htm

http://www.jcu.edu.au/school/phtm/PHTM/frogs/fdpeople.htm

heres more. I hope it helps. One has a link to help you find a frog vet in your area.

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 24 Jul 2003 21:09


Aw, I'm terribly sorry about what your frog is going through! I hope it improves, pulls through, and lives a happy life without all this from now on!

Maybe you should take the froggy to the vet at this point? I think the frog's best chance lies there. Well, good luck, and let us know what happens!


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 00:13 · Edited by: Moderator


THANK YOU GUYS SO MUCH!!! you're great!

well the only plant in the tank is one of those small, potted, mini palm plants. and i have large polished stones in the tank, although there is a little bit of gravel around the edges. he's so small, though, i don't see how he could have swallowed a peice of gravel, though i know it happens.

sad sad sad . . . i took him out and put him in an old tupperware thing (holes in the lid - duh) and took him to my university (i'm a senior psych major with a bio minor) where i am the animal care supervisor for the biology department's living collection. you can see the bio living collection website here http://www.capital.edu/acad/as/bio/animals/animal.html anyway we have a lot more there in the way of 'animal first aid' than i have at home. by the time my friend and i got to capital, the frog (his name is puck after the fairy in shakespeare's "a midsummernight's dream" was laying on his back with his legs stretched out and his 'hands' folded over his chest! he looked just like he was ready for the casket!! i picked up the container and he MOVED! he continued to breathe slighty the whole time we were at the university and twitched around a bit. on his back, on his tummy, stretched out, on his side, you name it. he would flop into a new position and stay there for half an hour just breathing really slowly. he's like a teeny tiny rag doll. i left him at my college over night and i'll check on him tomorrow - i don't see how he can make it through the night like this.

becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 02:21 · Edited by: becki


For one reason or another, your frog is having seizures and will liekely not live through the night. If you would like, he can be euthanized with a dab of oragel on his belly to end his suffering. Please excuse me if that sounds harsh, I am not trying to be. I just want to be honest and straight forward with you. Your frog is visibly retaining fluid - either from impaction or kidney failure. The impaction can be from gravel or eating too large of feeder insects. You can look for an impaction by shining a flashlight on his lower belly/back and see if you see any dark masses under the skin. You can't always see them, especially if there is alot of bloating but you may be able to. The kidney failure can result from the impaction itself, from a toxin exposure, or from too much calcium/vitamin supplementation. There are numerous sources a toxin exposure could come from - your WTF for one, untreated water, plant fetilizers, chemicals sprayed around the frog tank, etc. This is a slow and agonizing death for a frog and at this advanced stage, there isn't anything you can do to reverse it. I'm sorry for your frog and wish you the best of luck with your WTF. I'd ditch the gravel in the tank for sure and if you think this is a possible toxin exposure, tear down the tank and clean everything in it. Feel free to ask any other questions, I'll be more than happy to help if I can.
Becki

GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 02:49 · Edited by: GreenGirl


how sad. i can't imagine how painful this must be for him.

it does not sound harsh to put him out of his misery at all. i completely understand.

i get the same size crickets for both frogs even though the white's is at least twice the size of the american green. they are medium sized crickets. i'll bet it was an impaction from the gravel or too large of an insect.

i can't believe this. i've had all kinds of animals die on me, but never in this manner. it's aweful to witness. i will definately re-do my tank and sterilize everything with chlorhexadine and get rid of the little bit of gravel.

i happened to think - what if the white's did try to eat the AG but the AG got away only some of the white's saliva got on the AG's skin. could this be a toxin? especially considering frogs' sensitive skin?

i was also wondering, how is it that oragel works for euthanization? i realize that frogs can absorb many different molecules through thier skin, what is it in oragel that is absorbed that 'puts them to sleep'? does it have something to do with the nervous system since oragel is for pain relief? you can give it to me straight and scientifically - i won't become ill or anything! lol. just curious. i've also heard that you can put benzocain in the water of aquatic frogs to euthanize them. how does this work?

thank you guys for the information and for your support!

oh and becki - can you tell that he "visibly retaining fluid" from the second picture i posted? it's so sad how his legs have become thinner than ever and his tummy has bloated.

Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 02:52


I've been meaning to ask the oragel question myself. Hubby asked me how it worked and I couldn't answer him. I don't like not having the answers LOL


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 03:07


As for the Oragel, the bezocaine in the water is the same thing that is in Oragel. And to the best of my knowledge and understanding of the mechanism it supresses the CNS. It works relatively quickly and is supposed to be painless.
As for the bloating, I noticed it both pics but to me it's more noticeable in the first one. Do keep in mind though that I just lost a Green this same way in March and he looked just like that when he would try to climb so it's just recognizable. I believe his was due to impaction from eating too many crix at once and when I decided it was time to put him down, a fellow friend and frogger told me how and also shared this advice with me which I have no passed on several times: Place a dab of the oragel in the palm of your hand and then sit him on it. While you're holding him, tell him you are sorry that you can not do more for him and thank him for what he has taught you along the way. I picked him up and he seized and died right then in my hand. It's not an easy ordeal to witness so I do empathize with you.
As far as the WTF being a source of toxin, it wouldn't be from saliva but rather from the defense toxins he naturally possesses.
Again, I am truly sorry and please let me know if I can be of any more help.
Becki

GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 03:13


i c. well thank you for the information. what a wonderful way to say goodbye to a little friend. you've got me on the verge of tears here, darn you!

i'm so sorry to hear about your AG!!! is this (IE: kidney failure and/or impaction) common with them? with all tree frogs? with all frogs?

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 05:20


I'm sorry that your frogs ailment has turned out to be so terminal, so then here is hoping that your Whites stays in the best of health. And all of our frogs.

Anyway, if you're able to keep him at your school, is there anyone who could see him there and make a judgement as to what caused the kidney failure/bloating? It would really be rewarding in the end, because you can make sure to prevent the same from happening to your Whites.

And Becki, it can happen from them eating too many crickets at once? Wow, I've got to keep a better eye on a particular green that goes nuts on crickets every time. Thanks for the heads up on that!


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 15:01


well it is a biology department and we used to have a veterinarian on staff - she taught animal science classes and stuff as well as ran her own vet business. well this year she left for another college and we didn't replace her with a vet, but an endocrinologist. so no vet around anymore. she was pretty much dairy/farm science anyway and i doubt if she would have known a lot about a froggie, although she could possibly have told me about impaction, siezures, and what may have caused this.

i'm glad my friend told me about you guys because even though it is so hard to lose the little guy this way, i think it would have been harder not having any idea what happened to him or why. it gives a little closure.

ps: how many white's do you guys think could happily live in a 55 gal turned on it's end (so it's tall)?

spydergirl4594
Member
1607 posts
1607 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 20:17


well,its 20 for one, 30 for two,40 for three,and 50 for 4. so you could fit 4 in there comfy but 5 would cramp it a bit.


-Sheryl
GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 25 Jul 2003 20:40


cool, thanks!

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 26 Jul 2003 04:09


Lol, from a veterinarian to an endocrinologist? That's the strangest thing I've ever heard--but they may know a thing or two about kidney failure

Anyway, what happened to the frog? Has it passed yet? If it hasn't, I hope it goes easily and pain free. Otherwise, I hope it went in peace.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 26 Jul 2003 05:01


Sorry to be late, but if you stick around awhile, you'll see it unfortunately tends to be my style most of the time .
Anyhoo, I don't know stats per say on the occurence of impactions but I would wager to say for beginners it is a very common occurence because nobody thinks about it or realizes how easily it can happen. Almost every beginner who goes to a pet store to start in this hobby goes home with a bag of gravel.
And Chesh, I don't know how likely it is for them to become impacted from eating too many insects at once when they are hunting their own food and feeding amounts are controlled. I was bowl feeding 2 GTF in the same tank from the same bowl and I think Neechi was eating his and Neno's share all at once.
Hope this helps a bit.
Becki

GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 26 Jul 2003 05:36


wow. i'm surprised my little guy lasted this long! i did have all small gravel in there at first!

yes he has passed. he is now buried in my backyard under the tree i planted in 4th grade (YES college seniors still bury thier dead animals!! lol!).

leapfrog
Member
42 posts
42 posts

# Posted: 26 Jul 2003 14:11


Cynthia, i'm really glad you like this place! In coming here your GTF may not have made it, but it looks to me like you learned a lot and therefore,knowing you, i have the feeling you'll give your Whites the best life possible.

So sorry about your frog You've handled it great.


1 Whites Tree Frog -- Herby
GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 26 Jul 2003 15:03


thanks, LF

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 27 Jul 2003 03:06


Aw, I'm sorry about your froggy, but now your other frog can live a better life.


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
GreenGirl
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 27 Jul 2003 04:23


yes. i *am* glad for that.

Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 30 Jul 2003 04:53


I looked and it's suprising how little there is on frog health minus the few big problems.

Sorry about your frog. I was freaking out when one of my toads was throwing up mealworms don't know what I'll do when they get old.

Zookeep
Member
173 posts
173 posts

# Posted: 2 Aug 2003 03:38


A guy who's been working with herps for years and does quite well with them told me it wouldn't be an issue to have one Green Tree and one Grey Tree in a 10gal. He also has absolutely no problems using plain tap water with all his animals (many have had it for years) and he houses some on newspaper with absolutely no problems. Go figure. Goes against all mainstream wisdom and has success.

becki
Moderator
1262 posts
1262 posts

# Posted: 2 Aug 2003 19:45


Plain untreated tap water? The only way I could see that possible if he is in one of the very few places left where tap water is treated with only chlorine and is left to sit out long enough for it to evaporate. The newspaper can work but there is the chance of the dyes running so plain paper is better. And even the 2 in a 10 is possible but why cramp creatures in such tiny space? Just because it doesn't kill them doesn't mean it's right.
Becki

cheshireycat
Member
3789 posts
3789 posts

# Posted: 3 Aug 2003 05:15


Zookeep, some cities don't treat their water with chlorine, some use very little, and some people use well-water anyway, so it's just a general precaution to be treating water.

Anyway, I'd figure that a grey and a green aren't the worst frogs to keep together, but grey tree frogs do produce irritating secretions which would irritate another tree frog species much worse than it would irritate us, most likely, so I don't think it's a great idea... but who knows? Not I


- Evolution is a theory, not just a fact. -
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