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Message |
Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 05:03 · Edited by: Ed Clark
I alway see someone asking if their Horned Frog is male or female. its impossible to sex a froglet with 100% accuracy, but using this method will give you at least a reasonable idea of what the sex can possibly be.
Heres an easy way to possibly determine the sex of smaller Horned Frogs, although not 100% accurate it can give you a good idea of the differences of the 2 sexes. and of course as the frogs mature you will see signs and behaviors that will confirm the true sex of the frog.
Its all in the noses, this first pic is a female. see the nose how it sticks out and is more triangular, all girl.
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Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 05:05
This is a male. notice how the nose from the nostrils down is more flat. all boy.
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Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 05:07
Heres another female.
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Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 05:08
Another flat faced boy.
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Jay Willis
Member
1475 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 06:17 · Edited by: Jay Willis
Male
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Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 06:20 · Edited by: Steven Busch
am confused Ed. By your explanation this albino pictured here should be a boy. "He" is the mother of several hundreds of babies.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 06:39 · Edited by: Ed Clark
am confused Ed. By your explanation this albino pictured here should be a boy.
Steve, It can be very confusing! 
Nose sexing on frogs is fairly accurate, there is some variability thought. as a general rule what I described above holds true and can be used until other signs or behaviors prove otherwise.
cmrcpythons@yahoo.com
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marlon
Member
193 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 06:52
Im also confused. Marlon
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lestat
Member
1367 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 06:53
Well, my gosh... My baby pacman must have gay parents!  I must say, his mother is a very handsome man!
"This is a forum, not a cell phone." |
Jennifer
Member
1526 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 08:14
Does anyone have any males that looked like the females Ed posted?
In some of the other frogs, it seems that a pointier and/or more angled nose means it's a boy frog -- has anyone else noticed that?
FrogPrincess |
Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 16:32
According to Philippe de Vosjoli, where our breeding stock derived, and quoting from his book "Horned Frogs" copyright 1990, 2006 page 15 "Chacoan horned frogs cannot be reliably sexed until they become sexually mature. At this point, males develop grayish throats whereas females retain a white throat with a small amount of dark patterning." He goes on to talk abut nuptial pads and size over one year as indicators also.
Yes Jennifer in many species of frogs and toads the females have a broader (hence the slang broads?) blunter head shape. It is obvious in some species and subtle in others.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 9 Dec 2007 23:58 · Edited by: Ed Clark
and quoting from his book "Horned Frogs" copyright 1990, 2006 page 15 "Chacoan horned frogs cannot be reliably sexed until they become sexually mature. At this point, males develop grayish throats
Steve, your quoting from a booklet published in 1990. thats 17 years ago and alot has happened since then.
The method of sexing smaller horned frogs that I described above is reliable at a fairly high degree of accuracy. around 2 years ago I set aside 10 females using this nose sexing and after they all matured 8 of the 10 were indeed females.
Although not 100% accurate its the only way I know to even have a remote idea of sexing small horned frogs. there are exceptions to this method of trying to determine sex. but at this point its all there is.
I have set aside 2 small groups of waxy monkey frogs(p sauvagii) with this method of sex determination and will know what they really are in the spring when they are mature. its really just a guessing game but when looking at enought frogs its easy to recognize the differences in the 2 sexes. yet again its all there is and if I can contribute and add to the knowledge..........its all good!
cmrcpythons@yahoo.com
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Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 02:09
Ed if you check the quote you responded to, you will see the book was updated in 2006. I guess you know more than Philippe when it comes to breeding the horned frogs as he only has 20 plus years of actual BREEDING experience with this species where he has raised juveniles to adulthood. I am sure if there was an "EASY" way to sex them he would know.
My concern is you are giving out misleading and inaccurate information in an attempt to sell juvenile sexed pairs.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 06:02
My concern is you are giving out misleading and inaccurate information in an attempt to sell juvenile sexed pairs.
Steve, stop acting like a damn fool!!
I do not misrepresent anything and do not have any juvenile sexes pairs of horned frogs for sale.
All I talked about was things that I have seen that may help others out with a possible way to determine sex in baby horned frogs.
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Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 06:09
Ed if you check the quote you responded to, you will see the book was updated in 2006.
The book you refer to was printed in 1989 and released in 1990, I know because I was breeding frogs then and waited for that book to be released.
I have raised many generations of Horned Frogs from babies to adults and talked about what I have seen as far as the difference in sexes.
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Frogbert
Moderator
2428 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 06:14
Ed and Steve....Keep this within Forum Rules....NO Name calling or Personal attacks.
Play nice....or not at all!
"Lead a life of purpose, Kindness being the first." ME
"The life of the individual has meaning only in so far as it aids in the making the life of every living thing nobeler and more beautiful" Albert Einstein |
Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 06:19
OK Frogbert, Sorry if my Passion has bubbled over a little. 
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Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 07:16
I do not misrepresent anything
Ed you say you do not misrepresent anything. I know for a fact that you misrepresented to me that you had bred the tomato frogs I got from you in August. I know of a breeder that went to your table at a show where it was represented that you were the breeder of his frogs. You represented breeding blue dumpy's ready end of Nov...where are they....the breeder has not sent them to you yet.
It also seems fauna classifieds board of inquiry has many people claiming you misrepresented yourself a few times.
As far as the sexing you claim to have "pairs" of juvenile sauvagii which sauvagii breeders highly doubt can be sexed at the size you listed.
These things concern me as people on this forum have lumped us into a common category which I want to distance myself from. As a breeder and a broker of frogs it is better to be upfront and honest and not just going out to close a sale by telling a buyer what they want to hear, in my nonconfrontational opinion. It makes it harder on all breeders when one makes misleading claims.
The book you refer to was printed in 1989 and released in 1990
The book in my hands was updated and revised in 2006. We will call Philippe and see what he thinks about your sexing ideas...I am sure he will be interested.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
spawn
Member
2552 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 07:35
Ed and Steve....Keep this within Forum Rules....NO Name calling or Personal attacks.
Play nice....or not at all!
STOP CENSORING PEOPLE. Nothing ever gets done in this forum with the mods running up and down peoples' necks for a fight that didn't even happen yet. I personally want to see where this is going. Telling someone to stop being a "damn fool" is hardly name calling.
What reason does anyone have to debate anything on this forum if everyone's afraid to post what they really think. Another thread where we actually talk about something real and it's about to get locked/deleted by the mods. Great.
Steve, I don't see citing Philippe V. as credible evidence to disprove Ed's working rule for sexing. He's a single person, regardless of his merits. You're basically saying Philippe is a definitive guide to the work with these frogs because he did it and wrote a book(s) on it. As he (Ed) has admitted, it is not fool proof and has exceptions. Just like saying the female of every species is bigger than the males. There are exceptions, and I had them in my hands personally to testify to it.
If Ed was going to use the method to sell more false pairs, why would he show the public? Why wouldn't he just keep the method to himself and sell them?
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Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 08:00
Spawn,
Yes Philippe wrote a book...My point is Philippe has seen, handled and actually bred thousand of this species. He has been the second largest breeder of them for a long time. He has raised, then bred them verse just raising a group of 10 to test a theory, a statically insignificant number. We have numerous adult horned frogs and his theory doesn't hold with our adult frogs.
No Ed has not been selling sexed pairs of juvenile horned frogs, that I am aware of. My concern is buyers will seek something that was first represented as being a sure easy thing. Once questioned and a picture posted of one of our females that did not fit in his profile he backed down and offered it was not 100 percent sure. The truth is most of our adult horned frogs do not fit his theory. Our main issue is we think it is not accurate and misleading.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
spawn
Member
2552 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 08:41
That's fair. Ball is back in Ed's corner.
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BIG HYDRO
Member
3139 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 09:50
Well it seems that Philippe De Vosjoli has written many books over the years.
http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Philippe_De_Vosjoli-mci d_2707060.html?isrc=b-authorsearch
So it is entirely possible that you guys are talking about two different books.
http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Horned_Frogs-ISBN_97818 82770007.html?isrc=b-search
http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Horned_Frogs-ISBN_97818 82770885.html?isrc=b-search
Please continue as several of us have discussed this exact situation via emails and private messages.
There is only one True God.....and his name is Lemmy Kilmister. |
marlon
Member
193 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 10:00
ED and Steve no argueing marlon
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Jay Willis
Member
1475 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 10:43
I'm sure sence We are all adults here that Ed and Steve have both walked away from this, but I just want to make sure I have got the info straight.
So noes sexing is not 100%, but still a good way to "possibaly" get the sub-adult male of female that You looking for. Yes or no?
Ed, if You have a 80% success rate with this then that is 80% better then My "pick and pray" method of sexing. All I want to know is how large do they have to be before You try this technique?
I have never seen anyone trying to sell sexed juvenile frogs before, and everytime I ask all I get is "If You buy a bunch, theres a good chance You will get what You wanted, then just sell the rest.". So anything that can put Me in the ball park is good for Me!
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Frogbert
Moderator
2428 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 16:01
Spawn,
I was not sensoring....I was warning them to play nice. We have been down this road before. I don't want us to loose this important thread because someone gets nasty. There is much that can be learned.
"Lead a life of purpose, Kindness being the first." ME
"The life of the individual has meaning only in so far as it aids in the making the life of every living thing nobeler and more beautiful" Albert Einstein |
Jay Willis
Member
1475 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 16:26
I was not sensoring....I was warning them to play nice. We have been down this road before. I don't want us to loose this important thread because someone gets nasty. There is much that can be learned.
Your right to say that this could get "nasty", but I feel that I learned something from it.
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Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 19:30
Ed has addressed my concerns and the point to my objection. He started with it's easy...he has now edited the original post and added disclaimers as to the accuracy of his methods.
Both sexes of the pacman are nice. The females larger, the males more colorful. Breeding this species is not for the inexperienced.
I can positively guarantee anyone that they have a 100% chance of getting either a male or a female if they buy one animal.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 23:30
Heres some of my thoughts on nose sexing phyllemedusinae frogs, we will use P sauvagii as the example.
If you dont agree with this, tell me why?
This 1st pic is a possible male. why? because of the concave nose.
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Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 23:32
This is a possible female.
Look at the nose between the upper lip and the nostrils. very full and round.
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Ed Clark
Member
437 posts
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# Posted: 10 Dec 2007 23:50 · Edited by: Ed Clark
Steve, your right that my initial post was lacking somewhat, I seen that later and added information that would be more useful and accurate.
I have set aside froglets from this past summer to raise up and see what the results are, they are in groups of possible males and females. this is for my own information...thats all.
I dont think I insulted you here? I wanted to... but thought better of that. nothing wrong with a lively debate!
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