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talk to the frog / Breeding / Culturing Phoenix Worms (Soldier Fly)
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Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 21 Aug 2007 01:00


Okay, so I bought some Phoenix worms to add to the many feeders that I now offer for my frogs and reptiles. I've heard nothing but great things about feeding Phoenix worms to your animals and would like to attempt to culture them but can't find much info about it on the net. Anyone got any ideas how to culture Phoenix Worms??

Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 21 Aug 2007 13:06


Anyone?!?!?!

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 21 Aug 2007 13:32 · Edited by: doc1975


Well, if I find something more useful, I will post, but reading this may discourage your efforts as it appears the larvae are raised on putrid waste...

http://www.esrla.com/brazil/frame.htm

Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 21 Aug 2007 18:38


Yeah I found a similar care sheet doc, but the one I found has the larvae being raised in fresh sh#@!! No way in hell. I was just wondering if there were any alternate methods to these very disgusting ones. Thanks doc

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 21 Aug 2007 21:18


I did find a post on another forum advising the person looking for this same info, to ask the peeps at wormman's. Although, as you more than likely know, breeders are hardly giving on their breeding techniques! I will keep looking for you though.

Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 22 Aug 2007 01:05


Appreciate the hell out of that doc!!!

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 15:30


Here some more info i found...

Feeding Habits - Soldier fly larvae are scavengers and thrive on many kinds of decaying organic matter, including carrion, manure, plant refuse and the waste products of beehives. Adults commonly frequent flowers of the daisy and carrot families.

http://ipm.ncsu.edu/AG369/notes/black_soldier_fly. html

Looks like you can go the 'plant refuse' route... probably very cheap as well as you could approach your local grocery store to donate their produce waste, more than like for free!

I will continue the search!

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 15:34


Some more...

Soldier flies prefer to oviposit in the drier areas of the manure. In addition to laying eggs in livestock and poultry manure, they lay eggs in beehives and on young bananas on plants (in Central America).

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 15:53 · Edited by: doc1975


Ok, I think i found exactly what you're looking for, unfortunately I can not say with any degree of certainty as it will cost you 15.00 to purchase the entire article which supposedly describes in detail all you need to rear the soldier flies... heres an excerpt from the website that is selling the article...

Rearing Methods for the Black Soldier Fly (Diptera: Stratiomyidae)
D. Craig SheppardA, B, Jeffery K. TomberlinB, John A. JoyceB, Barbara C. KiserB, and Sonya M. SumnerB

A. E-mail: sheppard@tifton.cpes.peachnet.edu, B. Department of Entomology, University of Georgia, Coastal Plain Experiment Station, Tifton, GA 31793

The black soldier fly, Hermetia illucens (L.), is a nonpest tropical and warm-temperate region insect that is useful for managing large concentrations of animal manure and other biosolids. Manure management relying on wild fly oviposition has been successful in several studies. However, confidence in this robust natural system was low and biological studies were hampered by the lack of a dependable source of eggs and larvae. Larvae had been reared easily by earlier investigators, but achieving mating had been problematic. We achieved mating reliably in a 2 by 2 by 4-m screen cage in a 7 by 9 by 5-m greenhouse where sunlight and adequate space for aerial mating were available. Mating occurred during the shortest days of winter if the sun was not obscured by clouds. Adults were provided with water, but no food was required. Techniques for egg collection and larval rearing are given. Larvae were fed a moist mixture of wheat bran, corn meal, and alfalfa meal. This culture has been maintained for 3 yr. Maintainance of a black soldier fly laboratory colony will allow for development of manure management systems in fully enclosed animal housing and in colder regions.

Keywords: Hermetia illucens, waste management, manure digestion, insect based feedstuff


You can get to the site and this specific page via:

http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?request=get-docume nt&doi=10.1603%2F0022-2585(2002)039%5B0695%3ARMFTB S%5D2.0.CO%3B2]http://www.bioone.org/perlserv/?req uest=get-docume nt&doi=10.1603%2F0022-2585(2002)039%5B0695%3ARMFTB S%5D2.0.CO%3B2

The site is bioone.org.

It appears to be a collection of studies and papers by various scientist, universities, doctors, etc... If i read it correctly, in order to be a member of the site, you must belong to a particular organization, but you may still purchase the individual article on it's own for 15.00.

If this pans out as I believe it will, my work here is done!

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 16:01


Let me know when I will be able to place an order with you!

Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 17:58


Larvae were fed a moist mixture of wheat bran, corn meal, and alfalfa meal.

This method sounds the easiest to me!! You are the man doc!! If all goes well I will send you some for free of charge!!

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 18:00


Yeah, well, first check out the link i provided... the site implies that the document contains all the info you're looking for. 15 bux isn't bad if you're seriously looking into breeding them, if not... don't waste your money i suppose.

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 18:01


Yeah, well, first check out the link i provided... the site implies that the document contains all the info you're looking for. 15 bux isn't bad if you're seriously looking into breeding them, if not... don't waste your money i suppose.

Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 18:07


I was planning on breeding them, but for personal use only so I'd rather not shell out 15 bucks. I'm gonna do some more searching around and see if I can pool from all the different sites to come up with a sure-fire method. Thanks again doc.

doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 23 Aug 2007 20:53


Makes sense, atleast you know where to go if all else fails.

Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 24 Aug 2007 02:13


Yeah I could always just drop a deuce in there with the larva

tth_lee
Member
554 posts
554 posts

# Posted: 24 Aug 2007 12:03


If my university registry still works (I graduated earlier this yr) I'll check the journal database for this article. gotta go to work soon so I'll do this later tonight.


Tom
1.0.0 Horned frog | Ceratophrys cranwelli
0.0.1 Golden fantail | Carassius auratus
1.1.0 Chinese fire-bellied newt | Cynops orientalis
1.0.0 Betta fish Betta splendens
My collection is small, but less is more :-
doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 24 Aug 2007 12:29


If my university registry still works (I graduated earlier this yr) I'll check the journal database for this article. gotta go to work soon so I'll do this later tonight.

That would be wonderful, thanks as I'm sure hayden would appreciate it as well.

Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 24 Aug 2007 14:22


Yeah man, appreciate that

tth_lee
Member
554 posts
554 posts

# Posted: 25 Aug 2007 00:22 · Edited by: tth_lee


Sorry, guys. University cut my access off. Where's the love for the alumni these days?


Tom
1.0.0 Horned frog | Ceratophrys cranwelli
0.0.1 Golden fantail | Carassius auratus
1.1.0 Chinese fire-bellied newt | Cynops orientalis
1.0.0 Betta fish Betta splendens
My collection is small, but less is more :-
doc1975
Member
829 posts
829 posts

# Posted: 25 Aug 2007 00:48


Damn liberals!

bsflarva
Member
3 posts
3 posts

# Posted: 12 Jun 2008 13:26


Hey all, I found your forum while researching black soldier fly larvae and I decided to revive this old thread. I raise BSF and I just started a blog about it. I don't keep frogs but I'm happy to discuss this one topic if anyone is interested.

You might enjoy these videos I shot:

Toads gone wild

Toads gone wilder

Toads gone wildest

theboardedwindow
Member
892 posts
892 posts

# Posted: 12 Jun 2008 15:42


the field guide i own doesn't give a more specific range for this diptheran other than to say "most of north america"

as you can imagine, that doesn't tell me what i want to know.... i live in the pacific northwest... Seattle, specifically. any indigenous soldier flys here? my hylids & hyperoliidae would love those guys, i'm sure. they'd also make an interesting addition to my feeders... i'm currently only rearing Blaptica dubia, however, am close to starting another Blattid colony... perhaps 'lobsters', not sure...

is the culturing of these flys appropriate for inside the house? (smell?) it's still in the 50's , low 60's for highs here.


1.1.0 Litoria caerulea
4.2.0 Ingerophrynus parvus
3.3.0 Afrixalus fornasini
5.1.0 Rhacophorus appendiculatus
0.0.3 Hyla versicolor / Hyla chrysoscelis
3.3.0 Bufo quercicus
0.0.4 Pseudacris regilla
Hayden
Member
2943 posts
2943 posts

# Posted: 12 Jun 2008 16:14


it's still in the 50's , low 60's for highs here.

Wow, must be nice. It is already breaking 100 here with the heat index up in the 110's... (I'm in South Georgia). And it ain't even summer yet...

theboardedwindow
Member
892 posts
892 posts

# Posted: 12 Jun 2008 16:21 · Edited by: theboardedwindow


yeah, i was born and raised in north Mississippi.... i HATE the heat.... hence the move... ten years ago now.

[thankfully, my family was very adamant about my brother and i not "succumbing" to the local "culture." we'd get smacked for saying "yall," and my brother and i (who played w/ people of other color when we were young) got beat-up a lot for that... i HATE that area of the country. no offense, Hayden (or anyone else.) <----- i can't stress that enough. i just had bad experiences there... that was 20 years ago, though.... much may have changed since then..]

when it gets up to 70*F here i start complaining, lol.... might make the big plunge to Alaska in the next couple of years, who knows, lol!


1.1.0 Litoria caerulea
4.2.0 Ingerophrynus parvus
3.3.0 Afrixalus fornasini
5.1.0 Rhacophorus appendiculatus
0.0.3 Hyla versicolor / Hyla chrysoscelis
3.3.0 Bufo quercicus
0.0.4 Pseudacris regilla
bsflarva
Member
3 posts
3 posts

# Posted: 12 Jun 2008 17:38


theboardedwindow, I'm not really sure about the exact distribution of black soldier flies, I've only read general statements like you mentioned. They can be cultured in any climate as long as it stays above freezing. You can acquire larvae and allow them to pupate and in theory it would be fairly easy to establish them.

Indoor cultivation isn't feasible. The colony needs constant reseeding by wild adult flies because in most cases the larvae are ready to pupate within a few weeks. You can store the prepupal larvae for several weeks with minimal care. You can also store pupae for extended periods to preserve the population through the winter.

Hayden, I feel your pain. I'm in Grady county and it's hard to believe it's the middle of June!

When I said I don't keep frogs I guess I wasn't being completely accurate. I just built a pond and there's hundreds of frogs living in it now. I don't have fish large enough to prey on them so they're living large. I have a healthy population of Fathead minnows and I've seen the frogs eating them. I feed the minnows a large size fish pellet and typically several dozen minnows will chase a single pellet around the surface. The frogs have learned to zero in on the pellets. I've even seen them spit the pellets out after swallowing a minnow.

Can you ID this frog from the picture? I assume it's very common.



theboardedwindow
Member
892 posts
892 posts

# Posted: 12 Jun 2008 18:34


looks like Rana catesbeiana... the common American Bullfrog to me. i'm much more knowledgeable about hylids and other arboreals, though... i could be wrong.


1.1.0 Litoria caerulea
4.2.0 Ingerophrynus parvus
3.3.0 Afrixalus fornasini
5.1.0 Rhacophorus appendiculatus
0.0.3 Hyla versicolor / Hyla chrysoscelis
3.3.0 Bufo quercicus
0.0.4 Pseudacris regilla
Rick Cabrera
Member
155 posts
155 posts

# Posted: 13 Jun 2008 07:06


I was thinking of getting phoenix worms the other day but passed from previous casualties with Meal worms. They pretty much ate my frogs from the inside. I havent gotten too much info but, has anyone used these guys on frogs and have been successful?


2 Red eyes, 1 albino red eye, 3 Bumble bee Dart frogs, 2 Green and Black Auratus
bsflarva
Member
3 posts
3 posts

# Posted: 13 Jun 2008 15:00 · Edited by: bsflarva


Hi Rick.

I really doubt that black soldier fly larvae would harm a frog in any way. They're hardwired by nature to do one thing and that is to consume dead animal tissue and vegetable matter. Your question is a valid one though, and I think I'll borrow a few local frogs and toads to test it. Here's a shot of one of my local tree frogs:



I don't know the life cycle of mealworms, but I don't think it would make ecological sense for BSF larvae to be detrimental to frog health. In a natural setting I'm certain that BSF larvae feeding in the open would be heavily preyed on by frogs and I can't imagine it being harmful to them. With each female BSF laying 500-900 eggs it's important that most of them don't survive to reproduce. If more did survive then the population would become unbalanced I think.

theboardedwindow
Member
892 posts
892 posts

# Posted: 13 Jun 2008 20:30


right, you're typical type III survival ship curve on the diptheran larvae....


1.1.0 Litoria caerulea
4.2.0 Ingerophrynus parvus
3.3.0 Afrixalus fornasini
5.1.0 Rhacophorus appendiculatus
0.0.3 Hyla versicolor / Hyla chrysoscelis
3.3.0 Bufo quercicus
0.0.4 Pseudacris regilla
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