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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 25 Mar 2009 21:56 · Edited by: SusanHQ
Hi there,
I was curious if anyone else has noticed eye problems linked to PH. I recently set up my Malaysian Leaf Frogs in their new enclosure/rain chamber with a built in misting system, the water drains through the substrate (coco-fiber chunks) to a false bottom and then through a trickle filter to the sump where it is pumped back up to the misters. The water did get stained because it passes through the coco fiber which I am sure caused the PH to drop and become a bit acidic. I thought that over the next few days I would do some water changes and slowly bring the PH back up and no harm done but when I checked on them this morning under their eyes looks swollen and white. I have stopped the misting and will remove the coco-fiber tonight and replace the water. Has anyone else notice a link with PH and eye irritation? Or is there maybe something I am missing?
Thanks in advance for any help,
Susan
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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2009 15:24 · Edited by: SusanHQ
Update: As I said I removed the coco fiber chunks last night and completely replaced the water with reverse osmosis water (which has a neutral PH) and started the misters back up again. When I checked on them this morning all of their eyes are back to normal and the males seem to be enjoying riding around on the females (Continued
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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2009 15:30
backs.
I guess I will be more careful when it comes to water conditions specifically PH in this case. Maybe water PH levels either to high or to low in individual cities or coming from different sources wells, tap, can cause chronic eye problems in frogs. I am curious if anyone else tests their PH before using water from local sources?
Thanks,
Susan
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nuggular
Member
2857 posts
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2009 16:50
Good writeup Susan. Very interesting.
Climb on! |
Carlton
Member
581 posts
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2009 19:25
Very interesting Susan! I routinely test my water pH as our local well water is really hard. My well water always tests very very alkaline. Trying to buffer it takes a lot of effort. Our local toads test positive for chytrid fungus so I don't use tap water without RO filtration. I don't use cocoa fiber in my nasuta setups as I had read in earlier husbandry articles comments about their sensitivity to acidic soils. What has worked for me is a percolation layer of Leca (expanded clay pellets), window screen, then a deep drift layer of dried magnolia leaves which are resistant to rot and mold, but provide good cover. I also have cork bark curls for hides. Their pools are RO water.
Nasuta often come down with eye problems. They probably injure their eye horns during capture and shipping and get here with developing infections. There seem to be several pretty nasty bacteria or possibly viruses they can harbor under the eyelid. We also suspect one type is a secondary infection after treatment for chytrid fungus. Most diseases don't exist in isolation on an animal. Get rid of one, change the balance, and another can come out on top. I treat all my nasuta for chytrid after losing some to it a couple of years ago. We now know most of the wc adults carry it. All but two of the nasuta I've treated for chytrid are fine, but one had persistant eye infections that we couldn't control. One bacteria found on nasuta is resistant to almost every known antibiotic. Very scary stuff. But, it sounds as if yours were reacting to the setup. Let's hope!
Oh, another thing about nasuta. We've found that females should have their own setup seperated from males for most of the year until you are trying to trigger breeding. They are very difficult to breed. Only one or two successful breedings in the US in the past year or so and one published account in Germany. If they spend more than a few days amplexing you should separate them if they don't on their own. With enough space, males can share pretty well. Females are also known to bite or try to eat smaller males. More than one nasuta keeper realizes a male is missing only to find leg bones in a female's feces.
They are such a beautiful frog I hope we have more luck establishing them. Good luck!
"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax |
SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2009 20:43 · Edited by: SusanHQ
Thanks for the tips; it is difficult to find good husbandry information on this species I have not yet come across anyone else who keeps them in Canada. I have had my males for two years and my females for about 6 mths this is the first sign of eye trouble. I will keep a close watch on their eyes from now on. I spent all day yesterday kicking myself in the butt for not thinking about the acidity of the coco. All four have been treated for chytrid, unfortunately Lamisil is only available by prescription here so it's
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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2009 20:45
not easy to get your hands on. I was going to keep them in pairs but as per your recommendation I will keep my males separate. I would hate to see one of my little guys end up as dinner. I have been doing some research on breeding I did find a Japanese website that had pictures of tadpoles and one froglet but I could not get the page to translate. I will see if I still have the link. All four frogs are fat and healthy so I thought I would put them together just to see what would happen. I started them Monday night with the mister on 24hrs but then I had to cut it off and disturb them when I realized the coco was a problem. Where do you get the dried magnolia leaves, can you purchase them at a nursery do they have another use?
Thanks again for the info,
Susan
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Carlton
Member
581 posts
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# Posted: 26 Mar 2009 21:45
Great to hear you've had your males so long! I got my first male about 5 years ago but lost him to chytrid when he was added to a more recent breeding group. I still feel terrible about that. Within the last couple of years I've been able to get healthy females and additional males through Steve Busch and MegoMan. Right now I have 3 females and 6 males some have been here 2+ years.
I had a Japanese-speaking friend try to translate that website info. It didn't give much other than descriptions of the tads...no husbandry. There doesn't seem to be much else to it. There was a detailed account from a German zoo journal that gave more info on the setups. I think I posted it here somewhere last year. You might do a forum search on nasuta breeding. What we can't tell from that article is whether the frogs they bred were fresh from Malaysia. Many nasuta are in breeding mode as they come off the jets, and if the females have mature eggs they could be successful. But this breeding condition subsides after a few days and is hard to re-stimulate.
Actually, the two breeders in the US who have gotten as far as eggs or tads found that constant misting isn't the main key to breeding. A big drop in barometric pressure, very high humidity but not actual rain seemed to help. These frogs would be sheltered by many layers of forest canopy and they don't seem to like being directly rained on. So, they have tried a setup with a rain bar running down the sides of the tank, clean cobble substrate (like a cobble streambed) with some water current, with hides and crevices. To try to simulate a drop in pressure ( a mini monsoon storm) they've put on a tight fitting lid with an aquarium air pump pulling air OUT from under the lid. I know MegoMan is trying to breed again but haven't heard from him. Steve Busch is also trying.
I happen to be lucky and have an aunt in S. California with a giant magnolia tree in her yard. She sends me boxes of leaves. I give them a bleach solution rinse and dry them thoroughly first. They last a long time luckily. I've seen magnolia leaves offered on the kingsnake.com classifieds. There might be permit issues importing them to Canada but you might check the CA kingsnake classifieds for them. Another option would be almond leaves that are sometimes offered by terrarium supplies. You could probably use other large dried leaves such as maple, they may rot faster.
Welcome to nasuta world! Glad you are here.
"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax |
SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2009 19:04 · Edited by: SusanHQ
I hope I have posted a picture of my two boys (not sure if the link will work), this picture was taken when I was treating them. I do not have any updated pictures of the females but I took some last night and will post them as soon as I crop them.
I will look for that posting from that German Zoo, thanks. I did follow the posts of Megoman and Steve Busch, those little froglets Steve posted are amazing.
I do spray my frogs on a daily basis and have found that my guys really enjoy it they come out from their hides and do their little frog washing dance where they wipe themselves down, makes me smile every time. I will try the trick with the air pump and rob my Emerald Tree Boas of their fogger for a couple of days to see what happens.
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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2009 19:05 · Edited by: SusanHQ
I looked on line for the magnolia and almond leaves but I have not found anywhere I can buy them in large quantity. I was thinking I might try natural raffia.
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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2009 19:09 · Edited by: SusanHQ
Any idea why I have to keep making multiple posts, is this the forums way I telling me I am long winded. It keeps cutting me off.
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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2009 19:13 · Edited by: SusanHQ
I was thinking I might try natural raffia. It's made out of palm leaves we use it in our fruit fly cultures to give the flies more surface area and it does not mold. I found a place online that sells wide flat pieces. I have some sitting in water at home to see if it changes the water quality at all. It's too bad about your older male it is very easy to get attached these frogs have great personality. How much does your group vary in color? One of my pairs is tan in color and the other pair much darker with lots of pink.
Take care,
Susan
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kimix
Member
479 posts
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2009 22:33 · Edited by: kimix
The post not showing up all the way thing usually happens if you try to copy and paste blocks of text. Or typing certain characters on the keyboard, although I have no idea which ones sets it off.
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Here is photos of Chads breeding setup that proved successful
http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread &forum=7&topic=17060&page=0
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Some of the forum members sell boxes of magnolia leaves, just start a post that you are looking for some, and I bet someone will offer to sell you a box.
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And here's a photo of the eye problem my nasuta got just after I finished his chytrid treatment. It cleared up with antibiotics, but I also keep him on coco fiber (which I didn't realize was potentially bad till reading this thread)
Kim Klisiak
My Pet List - http://www.thetoepad.com/pets.php
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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2009 22:47
Here are pictures of my females.
Ok that's why I am having posting issues my spelling is not always the best so I use Word first then cut and paste.
I have kept mine on coco fiber for 2 years but have not had a problem until the water was running through it and altering the PH.
Thanks for the link I will take a look.
Take care,
Susan
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SusanHQ
Member
11 posts
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# Posted: 27 Mar 2009 23:01
Here is my enclosure, still needs much tinkering with.
Susan
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