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talk to the frog / Help / constant shedding & constipation
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phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 1 Mar 2008 22:23


Hi,
I really need help. My dumpy has been sick for a week now. She has been constantly shedding, she has dried, discolored skin, she is lethargic, and constipated. I really believe that she is about to die. I am so upset. I feel like suck a failure. I failed her. I am also devastated because I do not have the money to take her to an exotic vet. Is there someone out there that knows what she has and a possible cure? I cannot find anything about it when I google her symptoms.

Al_frog
Member
873 posts
873 posts

# Posted: 1 Mar 2008 23:08


I don't know if you've noticed but at the moment there are several other WTF owners posting to the list that have similar stories about their frogs and this goes on and on, month after month, although I do think Winter is a time we see more of this. I notice that even some of the long term members that care for a lot of frogs have lost theirs, and that includes me. The variations in skin color and constant shedding are not good signs. I don't think I have seen anyone come up with a definite disease or treatment. You do not give ANY details about the conditions that you have been keeping it in so we have no clue about what may have contributed to its condition. I suspect both temperature and humidity have been off. Usually I am told to raise the temps night and day slightly and keep the air a bit on the dry side (but of course see that there is a easily accessible water dish with clean water). See care sheets for normal values. You can use the search function to find other threads that discuss this issue and general frog care issues. I hate to sound negative but without medications and a vet visit, and even with, you're facing an uphill battle.

Tardy
Member
439 posts
439 posts

# Posted: 1 Mar 2008 23:10


Any more information?

1. Size of tank?
2. Heat source?
3. Type of lighting?
4. Type of substrate?
5. Type of water being used?
6. How often do you do water changes?
7. Type of food and how often?
8. How long have you had the frog?
9. How many hours of light on/off?
10. What is the temperature in the tank?
11. What is the humidity level in the tank?
12. What are the symptoms?


Ragdoll
Member
2080 posts
2080 posts

# Posted: 1 Mar 2008 23:23


Yes, you should post a pic of the tank if you can as well as the answers to the questions above.

Most times the issue is either stress (usually with new frogs or new setups) or incorrect habitat (temps/humidity, not treating the water etc).

Here is a good caresheet to help you: http://www.amphibiancare.com/frogs/caresheets/whit estreefrog.html


Bridget

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Dakhota
Member
3302 posts
3302 posts

# Posted: 1 Mar 2008 23:27


I feel like suck a failure. I failed her.

Don't blame yourself! Sometimes our froggy friends are more fragile than we thought. If your living conditions are good, there could be another cause.

You mentioned constipation? Are you seeing signs of bloating as well? Have you feed anything recently that could be impacted (mealworms, for example)?

As mentioned above, we need a quick rundown of your setup. This makes it easier for us to try and help you.


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phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 00:08


1. Size of tank? 20in long, 10in wide, and 1 foot deep
2. Heat source? low powered heat mat
3. Type of lighting? natural
4. Type of substrate? some moss
5. Type of water being used? well
6. How often do you do water changes? every day
7. Type of food and how often? dusted crickets 6 days a week.
8. How long have you had the frog? 4 years
9. How many hours of light on/off? As long as days and nights last.
10. What is the temperature in the tank? around 75.
11. What is the humidity level in the tank? not too bad. I mist two times a day and the moss helps
12. What are the symptoms? Always has dry scaly skin that constantly sheds. Bowel movement once a week. Lethargy. Discoloration.

Note: I never hold her so please don't accuse me of holding her all the time. Her surrounding have always been the same since I brought her home. Also, I keep everything clean and spotless. Yes I have used dish soap on her tank in the past(yes I'm ignorant) and wonder if that was the cause, even though I made sure it was rinsed off thoroughly. I don't use it any more..just hot water.

Do you think she might have Chytrid?
And what do you think about me breeding my own crickets..do you think that might do something?

I am trying to figure out a way to show you some pictures.

phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 00:51








phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 01:00


Don't blame yourself! Sometimes our froggy friends are more fragile than we thought. If your living conditions are good, there could be another cause.


Thanks for your sweetness Dakhota.

Frog Style
Member
2277 posts
2277 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 02:42 · Edited by: Frog Style



1. Size of tank? 20in long, 10in wide, and 1 foot deep
2. Heat source? low powered heat mat
3. Type of lighting? natural
4. Type of substrate? some moss

5. Type of water being used? well


When you say well, you mean well water outside? You need to either dechlorinate that water, or use artisan spring water....

6. How often do you do water changes? every day


7. Type of food and how often? dusted crickets 6 days a week.


I am not sure if others are going to comment on this, but ..... THAT is WAY too much of dusting! That's too much calcium for your frog! Your frog SHOULD only have dusting of crickets once every 10 days or so.

8. How long have you had the frog? 4 years


9. How many hours of light on/off? As long as days and nights last.


For lighting, I personally would get a low 5.0 uvb for daylight and a 2.0 for nightlight. Pretty much I don't believe in natural sunlight, even though they would have that in the wild. If you're giving them direct sunlight it's not good.... Get a 5.0/2.0 uvb light at petco/petsmart and a ballask [sp] ... they should have 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of night time...

edit: I don't keep my 2.0 on during the night, it pretty much turns on when our timer turns on at 8am, and turns off at 8pm. Sorry for confusion.


10. What is the temperature in the tank? around 75.


Is the tank 75 night and day? It should be between 75-80 during day and 70-75 at night.

This care sheet states up to 86, but I think that's extremely hot for a WTF:

http://allaboutfrogs.org/info/species/whites.html



11. What is the humidity level in the tank? not too bad. I mist two times a day and the moss helps


Do you not have a humidity temper? If not, you need one. Whether or not you're misting two-three or what not times a day, you should still have that humidity taker. It helps alot. If I remember correctly, I think 100% humidity is bad for these guys, 50-80% is about right. Also, does your tank have good ventilation?


12. What are the symptoms? Always has dry scaly skin that constantly sheds. Bowel movement once a week. Lethargy. Discoloration.



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phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 02:50


When you say well, you mean well water outside? You need to either dechlorinate that water, or use artisan spring water....


If I'm doing everything wrong..then it was amazing that this frog has survived four years...healthy! She just got sick a week ago..and for your info, well water is natural water and doesn't have chlorine in it.

Frog Style
Member
2277 posts
2277 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 02:58 · Edited by: Frog Style


Okay, sorry. I don't use well water, and I didn't know. My other half just told me. So I apologize on that.

I didn't say you were a bad owner, and I read you kept her for four years, I was just giving some friendly input.......

Do you have a vet near you? Can you see if they are able to help, or diagnose what's going on?

Her legs look red, but I dunno. Also what's the brown stuff on her? Also she looks blind :[ Or is it something that has happen over the past week of her becoming sick?

edit:

in a old post of yours, dated back in 2007, you stated an eye swollen up here [just reading over some stuff], so I'm guessing the eye that shows in the picture has been for a while?

http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread &topic=12650&forum=4&page=0

Did you ever find out the problem on that? The older video you have he / she looks adorable

Unless this isn't the same frog, then I apologize :P I just thought the video was adorable.


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Jennifer
Member
1522 posts
1522 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 03:03


I would not give her so much calcium.

You might want to try to vary things like --slightly more misting, slightly less misting, a six or eight degree variation in temperature between day and night (72 day, 80 night).

See if she seems to do better with any of that.

What does the bloating feel like if you touch it?


FrogPrincess
phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 03:17


Okay, sorry. I don't use well water, and I didn't know. My other half just told me. So I apologize on that.

I didn't say you were a bad owner, and I read you kept her for four years, I was just giving some friendly input.......

Do you have a vet near you? Can you see if they are able to help, or diagnose what's going on?

Her legs look red, but I dunno. Also what's the brown stuff on her? Also she looks blind :[ Or is it something that has happen over the past week of her becoming sick?



I don't mean to snap. Sometimes I feel people just want to lecture on how to take care of her, instead of giving me names of diseases that her symptoms may point to, even if people want to lecture..it doesn't matter because she is going to die anyways. I felt like I did everything right because she was healthy untill a week ago. Well 15 min. ago she refused food for the first time. Yeah I can't believe it but I think it might be possibly red-leg, if not chytrid. I thoroughly cleaned her tank every week and wiped it down every other day. I thought I was keeping it clean enough..but I guess not. The brown goop on her is dead skin. I have been soaking her in clean water everyday to keep her skin moist at least. She looks blind because I made the mistake of purchasing a frog with a tumor in her eye. I can't take her to the vet. I have no money. I just wanted to see if anybody has any experience in what this disease may be. So that I can possibly treat it myself.

phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 03:19


I would not give her so much calcium.

I don't anymore

You might want to try to vary things like --slightly more misting, slightly less misting, a six or eight degree variation in temperature between day and night (72 day, 80 night).

I agree. I will try these.

See if she seems to do better with any of that.

What does the bloating feel like if you touch it?


Matter of fact..she isn't bloated anymore. She was retaining water badly the first day she got sick. I thought maybe kidney failure..but she would have been dead by now.

Frog Style
Member
2277 posts
2277 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 03:45 · Edited by: Frog Style


I had a long post about the kidney failure thing, but realized mine was liver, and not kidney on one of my frogs, sorry. I'm stupid tonight.


Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was preaching. I personally don't know *EVERYTHING* about frogs, but I know enough from owning them [and reading/studying] online information [here and other places].

Never a mistake to take a sick frog in, atleast you did that, most people will say screw it and let them die.


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Jennifer
Member
1522 posts
1522 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 04:43 · Edited by: Jennifer


You might want to hold off on soaking her.

She may need to keep out of the water for as long as 72 hours to have a good shed all by herself.

It's hard to know for certain if this will help, but I tried it recently for a frog who was in a "mood" lately.

Click on my name and some of my posts ("Stealth frog") to see what was going on with my frog recently. I'm not sure exactly what was wrong with him but he did need a good shed and he needed to dry out before he did it. I saw him trying to shed for a few nights (but probably he didn't succeed too well because he had a worried human mom making sure he got wet daily). He also refused food during some weeks.

I thought he might be sick but after he really dried out and shed, he returned to more of his normal self.

She may just be going through a "frog winter blahs" period; I haven't heard anything which really suggests something known and terrible (although she may be very sick -- I don't know). Were you to take her to a vet, that person may not know anyway -- or if he does, he may not be able to help.

Chytrid is now curable but meds for that are not available here. I wouldn't be certain that it is that anyway. Redleg -- it sort of doesn't seem like that.

As far as advice, ignore what you don't like. The point of your posting is to see if you can get someone good to post something which you think seems to fit.


FrogPrincess
Jennifer
Member
1522 posts
1522 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 05:50


(P.S. I am not suggesting keeping her out of the water, just letting her go in only when she feels like it -- instead of soaking her because you think she needs it).


FrogPrincess
Tardy
Member
439 posts
439 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 14:52


Hello phironix,

You obviously care very much for all of your pets, btw, I love the video of you and your dobie

From my reading on chytridiomycosis, it is typical spread by amphibian-to-amphibian contact, so I am not sure that is what you are dealing with.

I know that for my WTF, she just sent through her first shed (all went well), but she took a few days for her to get back to her normal schedule.

I these days of just blurting out advice, I will do something much more old fashioned.....I will keep you and your frog in my prayers, and pray for a speedy recovery.

keep us posted


phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 19:43


I these days of just blurting out advice, I will do something much more old fashioned.....I will keep you and your frog in my prayers, and pray for a speedy recovery.

keep us posted



Thank you.

phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 19:44


She is actually doing a little better after turning the heat mat off. I'm wondering if I should leave it off and purchase a low wattage lamp. I have all of you to thank for this.

phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 19:54 · Edited by: phironix


Feeling a bit more fiesty today. Fingers crossed.







Steven Busch
Member
1089 posts
1089 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 20:01 · Edited by: Steven Busch


I should state we are not Veterinarians.

The symptoms you describe are symptoms of Chytrid fungus. We have very recent information that this is MUCH MORE PREVALENT in the pet trade than believed.

A treatment has been developed by Jay Bowerman that shows great promise, has eliminated chytrid without toxic effects, so far, in his testing of 3 species of frogs. We wish to thank herpetologist Chris Rombough for the valuable information he has provided and his efforts to combat this disease.

The treatment he is using is Lamisil AT spray pump. It costs about $10 at stores that carry foot fungus treatment medicines and is not over the counter product. It is the liquid version. Mix 10 squirts (about 1 ML) in 200 ml (3/4 cups plus 1 1/2 tablespoons) of water that is safe for frogs i.e. no chlorine. Soak for 5 minutes for 10 days. Keep on paper towels changed after each treatment. Your habitat soil needs to be changed and destroyed as the fungus lives in the damp soil.

At this point I think you should try this as he frog is in trouble. We will be posting a more extensive thread soon and will be doing testing ourselves.


Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope
phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 21:12


At this point I think you should try this as he frog is in trouble. We will be posting a more extensive thread soon and will be doing testing ourselves.


Thank you Steve, I really really appreciate this!!

Steven Busch
Member
1089 posts
1089 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 21:38


You are welcome.

Having the frog for 4 years you are doing most things correctly. Basic husbandry is probably not the issue. You are over supplementing and the frog may have some overdose issues. Good luck and please let us know how it goes.


Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope
Jennifer
Member
1522 posts
1522 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 21:46


Wow.

Here is what they post on it (which I'm sure you've read already):

http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/plantsanimals/Fr ogChytridFungus.htm

Chytrid can develop like that after Phironix has had the frog for months?

Do they get infected and then the organism multiplies over the course of months?


FrogPrincess
phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 22:07


Not to mention that she HAS NOT been around ANY other animal since I adopted her four years ago. I am certainly open to the idea that I may have over supplemented her, as Frog Style and Jennifer had so helpfully mentioned. I have only dusted once since she became ill(which was a week ago).

phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 22:08


Here is what they post on it (which I'm sure you've read already):

I DID NOT come across this!! WoW, thank you!

phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 22:14


http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/plantsanimals/Fr ogChytridFungus.htm


The picture on the right in this link...is that a before and after picture?

phironix
Member
44 posts
44 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 22:15


A sick frog may:

have discoloured skin
be sloughing, or peeling, on the outside layers of its skin. This can vary from obvious peeling of skin (particularly on the feet), to a roughness of the frog's skin that you can barely see
sit out in the open, not protecting itself by hiding
be sluggish, and have no appetite
have its legs spread slightly away from itself, rather than keeping them tucked close to its body. In more extreme cases, the frog's body will be rigid, and its back legs will trail behind it.


These are the same symptoms that she is having. I have noticed that she sits out in the open, AND when she sits now it's not sitting anymore. She is pretty much flat on her stomach with her legs sprawled out! But her skin is looking BEAUTIFUL right now! So is it still a possibility?

Jennifer
Member
1522 posts
1522 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2008 23:38 · Edited by: Jennifer


It's hard to know.

On the one hand, the conditions in which you've kept the frog sound to me right now to be mostly incompatible with that.

On the other hand, maybe there is some way that the disease gets spread through soil you buy for your frog or crickets .... or there is a long incubation period.

Moreover, the frog sort of sounds like it has that. I tend to think that Steve, despite his initial warning, is a pretty good diagnostician.

If it were my frog, I think that if I could get the special Lamisil, I might very seriously consider treating him within the next few days if you're not seeing continued improvement of some kind or another.

I get the feeling that this treatment wouldn't harm the frog -- but we'll wait for Steve to weigh in on that.

The pictures are both of sick frogs. If you move/keep your cursor on the pics, some descriptions of what they are pop up (and disappear quickly).

If and when you start that treatment, be very good about getting rid of soil, and keeping the habitat pristinely clean (maybe with paper towels for a good while).


FrogPrincess
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