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lestat
Member
1367 posts
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 02:56 · Edited by: lestat
Here's a perfect example of why I quarantine! I have three new baby Leptopelis vermiculatus (Big Eyed Tree Frogs). Two seem to be doing great. The third, however, has very foggy eyes. I think this is a new development since yesterday, but it could possibly have started the day before. He keeps his eyes half shut or completely shut. He opened them for me for the pictures, so you can get a pretty good look. I had my macro lens out, so these are super close up. The third photo is of one of the healthy frogs for comparison.
Both eyes are like that, and appear to have a few tiny bumps.
I was reading a bit about corneal lipidosis, thanks to some links someone here showed me. It looks like it -could- be that, but I know every little about it. I do not know of a vet who knows anything about frogs, but in the past I've been able to explain a situation and have a vet help me get what I need. If someone can tell me what to use, I can try my best to get it. I have used Terramycin on completely other animals in the past (cats, birds, rodents...) Does anyone know if it is safe for frogs?
Any help or suggestions are appreciated!
One of the healthy frogs:
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Frogbert
Moderator
2428 posts
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 05:20
That actually looks more like a fungal thing. saline drops work pretty well to clear that up. Others have had luck with turtle eye drops.
"Lead a life of purpose, Kindness being the first." ME
"The life of the individual has meaning only in so far as it aids in the making the life of every living thing nobeler and more beautiful" Albert Einstein |
Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 05:51
Methylene blue and read the follwing links about it. It will probably kill the frog if not treated and will spread to any other frogs. Treat BOTH eyes all frogs that came into contact.
http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread &forum=4&topic=12563&page=0#9
http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread &topic=12746&forum=3&page=0
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
lestat
Member
1367 posts
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 07:19
I will definitely be treating it. All the stores are closed this late, but I will get it asap tomorrow.
Steven, you said in that other thread that you dip all WC frogs in a solution of it. I don't know where my new frogs came from, but I have a suspicion that they are wild caught, since there was such a range of sizes at the store. Am I correcting in thinking that I should treat all three of them? How do you make that solution?
I have a very strong desire to know as much as possible about how to treat frogs (or any other aspect of their care). I plan on buying 'Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry' as soon as I can afford it. Any knowledge that you can pass along, I will gladly soak up!
"This is a forum, not a cell phone." |
Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 16:31
We just use a drop full strength for the eyes for several days. Treat all frogs that have been together. It will stain things blue so be careful. Also wash hands with a bleach solution before handling any other frogs after treatment.
The dunk is about 1/2 teaspoon to one cup of water. DO NOT let them soak in it to long or drink it. A spray bottle will also work instead of a dunk. The blue will stick to any body fungus and just run off of good healthy skin.
We suspect a systemic fungal disease that comes from within and gets to the eyes from the bloodstream is coming in This is very difficult to treat. Keep a very simple and dry environment while treating.
http://www.fdrproject.org/pages/disease/newfungusr esp.htm
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
spawn
Member
2554 posts
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# Posted: 1 Aug 2007 21:23
Lestat, is the frog fat? Otherwise it's probably not corneal lipidosis.
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lestat
Member
1367 posts
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2007 06:57
I treated them like you suggested, Steven. The sick one has been in his own cage since last night. The other two still look fine. I'm hoping it will stay that way.
I looked at that link, and the symptoms don't seem to match. I will continue to keep an eye out, however.
How long does it normally take for this treatment to work? He can't see to catch crickets right now. Is there something I can do to keep him from starving, or just hope it clears up before he starves?
The frog isn't fat, and someone on another site said they're too young. These are juvenile frogs, so apparently it takes a lot longer for that to develop.
"This is a forum, not a cell phone." |
Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 2 Aug 2007 07:24
The Methylene blue works on bacterial and fungal infections. We have had noticeable improvement within a few days.
You can try gently opening the frogs mouth and placing a cricket into it.
The corneal lipidosis would take longer to develop where a bacterial or fungal infection can occur at any age.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
Stoned Kitty Catnip
Member
6 posts
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# Posted: 4 Aug 2007 01:51
Hi Lestat!
You might have already taken care of the little guys problem but I've had a Red Banded female frog (also called a Red and Black Walking Frog) for over 7 years now (she recently passed a few weeks ago) and she had the same eye problem (same coloring/etc) about 5 or 6 years ago. I brought her to the vet and he suggested I use Terramycn on her. I placed a small amount over each eye once in the AM and once at night for a full 7 day cycle. The cloudiness went away after that week and she was fine! During that time she was still healthy as could be and ate normally. She didn't appear sick, but I didn't want her getting more infected if it was a bacterial problem. Anyhow, I suggest implementing that care program using the Terramycn. Please feel free to email if you have questions!  Good luck, and let me know if the little one recovers!
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lestat
Member
1367 posts
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# Posted: 4 Aug 2007 02:14
He isn't better yet, but he's eating for me. The lady I got him from thinks that this was caused by the stress of shipping and isn't an infection at all. She said to give him distilled water treated with ick medicine. Some other people I talked to freaked out when I mentioned Methylene blue and said it was dangerous. They also freaked out about the distilled water. Their suggestion was turtle eye drops and some medication that is apparently from Australia, and I can't find. I'm pretty confused at this point.
He doesn't seem to be too bad off, besides the eyes. He's active if I wake him up, and eats out of my hand (I don't think he can see well enough to hunt on his own) I haven't seen him move around without me waking him first, but I haven't stayed up late enough to catch any of my L vermiculatus awake. When I got home from work this afternoon, he looked pretty skinny, but I fed him just now, and he looked pretty healthy, except for the cloudy eyes. I don't know if treating him has helped anything, but at least he's not apparently getting sicker.
The two frogs I got him with both look healthy still.
"This is a forum, not a cell phone." |
Stoned Kitty Catnip
Member
6 posts
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# Posted: 4 Aug 2007 02:46
Lestat,
I suggest just getting some Terramycin since everything else isn't appearing to work. Sunshine also ate out of my hands while she was sick and then in recent years when she was older and couldnt move as fast to get the crickets. I have no clue about the Methylene Blue treatment but it just sounds bad! Terramycin should't harm him even if it's not an antibacterial problem, so it can't hurt to try. Also, I used tap water for Sunshine for 7 years so I don't know about that distilled water problem either!
That's good he's eating from you though. Here's a hand feeding tip that worked for Sunshine...the best result I had was slightly drowning the crickets in her water bowl (not killing them just breifly stunning them) and then placed the wet cricket on my finger right in front of her. She just sucked them right up. Even when the crickets would jump off my finger they had been shocked so they moved slower and she could grab them faster. Then you just have to clean out the water dish when you're done.
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Stoned Kitty Catnip
Member
6 posts
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# Posted: 4 Aug 2007 02:47
ps. those are some incredible pictures too! they are so clear...
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lestat
Member
1367 posts
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# Posted: 4 Aug 2007 02:56
I have Terramycin on hand, actually. I've found it to be very good in treating the many other animals that have needed my help in the past, but I'm always wary of using things on frogs, since they're so sensitive.
My little guy takes a while to figure out that there's food. I think he's relying on feeling them. I've been holding them by their back legs and gently bumping his nose with them, on the right side of his face, since that eye is a little less cloudy and he might be able to see them.
Thanks. Those photos were taken with a macro lens, which is why they're so close, and why the depth of field is so pitifully small.
"This is a forum, not a cell phone." |
lestat
Member
1367 posts
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2007 09:44
Well, Terramycin didn't seem to help at all. I've been using Methylene blue for the third day now. Here are some photos. The right eye looks a little better, but that might just be because of the Methylene blue. The left eye is hard to tell. The frog pooped today, but he hasn't eaten in three days.
It's too bad that this happened while I was still learning who to trust on frog knowledge. I should have stuck with Steven's method in the first place.
This is now going on ten days. I need advice. Should I keep working on him, or should I put him down? I worry constantly that my other frogs are going to catch it. The two that were with him when I bought them still look healthy, but I'm worried that won't last either (they are still separated from him). I would hate to kill him if he has a chance, but I don't know if he really does. I have been avoiding handling all the other frogs as much as possible (meaning, I have someone else feed them, water them, etc, but he's not nearly as careful about contamination and husbandry as I am) but they all need some looking after now (cleaning cages, trimming plants, health check on the other quarantines, etc) I don't know what to do. 
"This is a forum, not a cell phone." |
lestat
Member
1367 posts
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2007 09:52
BTW, it took him forever to open his eyes like that, although he kept them open for a while. Usually, he sits in his cage with his eyes closed. I don't know if that makes any difference in deciding what to do with him.
"This is a forum, not a cell phone." |
Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2007 15:12 · Edited by: Steven Busch
Keep working with him. Healing takes some time. Just be sure to wash yourself after touching him. We use soap and a watered bleach solution on our hands all the way to the elbows.
Time will tell if he is going to live or not.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
Steven Busch
Member
1091 posts
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# Posted: 10 Aug 2007 16:23
Additionally, keep him in a separate area of the house, a separate room is best. Handle him last, just before taking a shower is a good ay to deal with it. I would also treat his 2 buddies the same way as to handling until you know for sure they are not infected.
Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope |
Frogbert
Moderator
2428 posts
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# Posted: 11 Aug 2007 19:17
Please try washing the eye out with saline. also make sure you do not keep it too humid...It will feed the bacteria or fungus. I had this happen and it was fungal. the saline wash will retard the growth. At least it did for mine. I kept my frog in a 1 gallon kritter keeper on papertowel with a bowl of water changed daily. I did not mist.
"Lead a life of purpose, Kindness being the first." ME
"The life of the individual has meaning only in so far as it aids in the making the life of every living thing nobeler and more beautiful" Albert Einstein |
lestat
Member
1367 posts
|
# Posted: 11 Aug 2007 19:34
I've had him in a set up like that this whole time. His right eye looks like it might be marginally better now, but his left eye doesn't seem to have changed any.
I'm not going to stop using the Methylene blue. It's the only thing that's made any sort of change at all. I used the turtle eye drops, where are pretty much just saline anyhow, for about a week, and they did nothing. I'll use it to wash his eyes out before putting on the Methylene blue, but I think an actual fungal medicine will work better at retarding the growth. ;) I hope so, anyhow.
Thanks for the continuing input. It means more to me than I can explain. This whole thing has been terribly frustrating and sad.
"This is a forum, not a cell phone." |
