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talk to the frog / General / In Regards to Medical Questions/Advice
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Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 28 Mar 2006 09:15 · Edited by: Charlie


First and foremost. We are not Vet Personel, if your problem is bad, the first thing you should do is contact a vet for a consultation. Though I do know bringing your animal in can be costly in some cases, some things are better left to professionals. The only thing we can do for you here, with no warranties of course, is give you our best personal advice and/or methods of treatment... Which in minor situations, can be a ton of help. But if you think your animal is on the verge of death, sitting here waiting for someone to give you an over the counter cure-all for your mbd, redleg, or your parasitic infections, etc... would not be your best course of action.

If you do not have a herp vet yet, and you do no know where to find one, this directory is a good start.

Http://www.arav.com

Most anything anyone says here is advice from personal experiences. Everyones variables are different, and with that in mind results may vary. Use your best judgement as to whether you need to make a call.

If you are still unsure as to whether your problem is in need of medical attention, or you have already consulted a vet and you would care to share your experience... Do your best to include a digital photo of the problem, or describe everything you can see about it.

And most of all... Try to avoid handling sick frogs as much as possible, bare minimum is best. This will reduce the animals stress factor which can greatly affect your animals ability to naturally fight things off.


We can never go back to the way it was...
Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 28 Mar 2006 17:47


Well said Wes, or is it Charlie now?
People have to remember, most of us have not been through any kind of medical training, just real life situations where what we did to fix the problem might not work again.


0.1.0 Leopard Geckos
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lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 3 Apr 2006 10:08


Evol, Wes, Charlie, I think you have made one of the best statements for newcomers on this forum that has ever been put together. Those of us who answer questions now more than we ask them, perhaps, do it from personal experience, and a desire to help other people with the hobby. Our expertise in different subjects varies with the different kind of frogs we keep and breed, our varied backgrounds of education, and our opinions on major issues (such as mixing, etc.) may seem quite dogmatic, because we are generally in agreement on this. We do not know everything, even as a group. Some of us know more about one particular amphibian or genera and not a lot about others. We don't always agree, even with each other. Smart know-alls that we somtimes imagine we are, we too, need to post questions. While we may argue a point, I hope we are never rude, at least to newcomers on the forum. I think the spammers and anonymous posts that disrupted us in the past and frustrated the moderators are now pretty much ruled out, because now you have to join up to post. I just hope that by donig this, we are not relegated to simply just talking to each other over and over.


Lee
Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 3 Apr 2006 10:27


Thank you Lee, though I do not keep any frogs myself, I think that I have made enough good friends from this forum over the years now to just keep me coming back, and even sometimes feeling like contributing, more than disrupting (which we all know I excel at), once in a while to Yin my proverbial Yang a little. I've found the easiest way for me to not cause trouble around here is to leave my disagreements to another person when I flare up. Some people just have more tact than me sometimes. On that note a little... I have no tact at times folks. I will say things to folks honestly, with a straight face... In most cases, its my opinion... sometimes, its outright fact. Either way, don't think I am abusing you (trust me, if I was abusing you... everyone would know it) I don't have time for that kind of drama. Basicly, when time is limited... I am going to skip BS and tell you how it is. Anyways, I am hijacking this threads topic a little on the latter part of this fiasco. I'm off for the evening, you all have a good day, I'm gonna go enjoy my day off.


We can never go back to the way it was...
willydigger
Member
213 posts
213 posts

# Posted: 4 Jan 2007 00:51


I used to believe that vets where a good idea. In fact I had a sick frog and went to a vet listed on the ARAV site for MD. He Rxed ivermectin for my sick frog and my potentially sick frog. This was on a Wednesday. The not-so-sick frog died Friday and the sick one died the following Monday.

My suggestion, do a search here on this site. It may save your frog's life. If not for the treatment advice, than at least for the questions you should present to the vet. In my experience, I will trust folks on this site before trusting another vet.


RETF 1.0.3
yellowboy
Member
438 posts
438 posts

# Posted: 4 Jan 2007 01:38


willy digger : just because the frogs died doesn't mean the vet made the wrong choice. You can't play out both scenarios. The frogs may have both died on Thursday without the meds. Or they could have simply raised the chances of survival from 1 in 6 to 1 in 2 but the dice just didn't fall right. The fact remains that the vet especially a reptile vet gets paid to know what to do, while anonymous interneters like to pretend they know what to do. Thats not to say that people around here aren't knowledgable but there are many people here and we all have different opinions and we can't all be right. Sorry you had a bad experience with you vet. maybe you should try a different vet but don't lose all faith in them.

Jennifer
Member
1522 posts
1522 posts

# Posted: 4 Jan 2007 02:47 · Edited by: Jennifer


I thought the "not-so-sick" frog had no signs of illness -- and I therefore think that Willydigger has a point.

There is a little too much respect for veterinarians' ability to help sick frogs.

"Getting paid" to know what to do is a recipe for disaster. This is not a person who has the time to know what is wrong; he sees animal after animal, asks a stock set of questions, gives some diagnosis ... and gets paid.

It could be easier, if you don't really have any internet savvy, to contact a vet from a telephone book and to figure out how to get medications through a vet (he can just tell you where to pick them up or give you the medications) but I would never trust a vet over this site for information for my sick animal ... if someone/anyone on here has any idea of what to do.

Now, I might trust a "vet frog forum" over this site if all the vets sat around thinking about frogs all the time and thinking in particular about my darling little Tomato, or White's or RETF, if they saw frogs living and suffering because they had them as pets, and if they knew that some of standard information given out about frogs is wrong ... but vets are earning a living, (after spending years in school learning about the biochemistry of Ivermectin and how it applies to horse parasites and other irrelevant information), not spending their time worrying about the fragile lives of "Squishy" and "Stoner," and their little tiny internal organs' ability to metabolize medicines.

There are specific advatages to this forum over the way standard medical care is given:

You can't call the vet every time you see or remember another symptom to ask if the latest new symptom means something else. You can on here.

Even though some people may write things which aren't perfect, it is better to be on this site because people present a lot of experiences and there is usually one that approaches the treatment you need for your beloved pet.

The hard part on here is trying to figure out whose advice to follow and in making sure you follow it exactly, in spending the time to post all symptoms and details of your frog's problem -- and also to ask about and go about finding treatment for the animal within hours of the moment you see something wrong. (I think we often wait a little too long hoping the problem will go away.)

You may not be able to play out both scenarios but one which results in death for one rather healthy-appearing animal as well as a sick one seems pretty clearly to be a bad choice especially in light of what some of the people on here would have done differently for Willydigger's frogs.


FrogPrincess
willydigger
Member
213 posts
213 posts

# Posted: 5 Jan 2007 20:16 · Edited by: willydigger


I thought the "not-so-sick" frog had no signs of illness -- and I therefore think that Willydigger has a point.

That is correct. He had no signs of symptoms. The vet however recommended treatment due to the exposure and the likely circumstance of also having worms. That made sense to me so I didn't question it. He died first. He seemed very healthy and active. The sick one lasted a few days longer. The emergency vet (not on the list, but referred by the initial frog vet) also suggested full spectrum UV light, which I now know is unnecessary.
I agree that there can be people on a forum that have no idea what is going on, but I also will never blindly trust a vet based on expertise and medical experience/training. The next time I have a sick frog I'm asking Tim first.

EDIT: my name is Fred. It's kind of weird reading people calling me willy.


RETF 1.0.3
RyanD
Member
155 posts
155 posts

# Posted: 6 Jan 2007 00:19


In response to posts here I almost feel obliged, being a son a veterinarian, to defend veterinarians in general. However, on the other hand, I see exactly where you guys are coming from. I just want to clear things up a bit; your posts seems assumptive that all vets shouldn't be trusted.


There is a little too much respect for veterinarians' ability to help sick frogs. I don't know if respect is the word, but I do know, a vet has to have a high interest or specialize in herps if he/she wants to treat a frog with high certainty. My guess would be that most vets would have to look up treatments; then the rest is based on experience. For example, my dad, although primarily large animals, has NO idea himself how to treat a frog. He's got a book with a few treatments- not much though.

"Getting paid" to know what to do is a recipe for disaster. This is not a person who has the time to know what is wrong; he sees animal after animal, asks a stock set of questions, gives some diagnosis ... and gets paid. Ouch... a main reason why people become vets is a strong interest in animals.

It could be easier, if you don't really have any internet savvy, to contact a vet from a telephone book and to figure out how to get medications through a vet (he can just tell you where to pick them up or give you the medications) Great idea- as long as you know what meds you need. Just a note- your likely to get charged an arm and a leg, unless you know the vet well, are likely to come back, or both you and the vet are friendly. Trust me on this one. Wise farmers are nice to their vets. Some fish medications may be used, you could probably get it all off the internet if you look.

but I would never trust a vet over this site for information for my sick animal ... if someone/anyone on here has any idea of what to do. I will assume you mean herps- and to that I agree with you. We on the forums have experience and can obtain a lot of medical knowledge. but most vets only have a book and little to none experience with frogs.

Now, I might trust a "vet frog forum" over this site if all the vets sat around thinking about frogs all the time and thinking in particular about my darling little Tomato, or White's or RETF, if they saw frogs living and suffering because they had them as pets, and if they knew that some of standard information given out about frogs is wrong ... but vets are earning a living, (after spending years in school learning about the biochemistry of Ivermectin and how it applies to horse parasites and other irrelevant information), not spending their time worrying about the fragile lives of "Squishy" and "Stoner," and their little tiny internal organs' ability to metabolize medicines. A vet frog forum would be a trusty source. And yes, to be honest, most vets probably do care less about a $5 dollar frog than a $200 dog. Keep this is mind though- which would be the more profitable animal? Its not like you can spade a frog, do any type of surgery... well, you could try... It it more productive to spend time thinking about a frog or a cat? (not that they wouldn't care, its just that to some people, Fido is worth $1000 and a frog... not so much)

I agree that there can be people on a forum that have no idea what is going on, but I also will never blindly trust a vet based on expertise and medical experience/training. Well... i am going to have to disagree with most of that. If a vet is experienced with a frog or a snake or has a very high interest in herps- then i would place the life of my herps in his/her hands. BUT I do think that just because they have gone to school for 8 yrs- it doesn't make them a supreme authority when it comes to HERP care. Honestly, how many vets do you know that have GOOD experience with herps? I think most of those types work in zoos.


All in all, I hope that I have offended no one. It is in my opinion, being the son of a vet, that it would be better to take advice from experienced veterans in herps with some general medical knowledge, than a qualified vet, although sopposedly "knowledgable" source; that has had no experience with herps. ( i hope you understand me)

I think lostriver put it best: We do not know everything, even as a group. Some of us know more about one particular amphibian or genera and not a lot about others. We don't always agree, even with each other. Smart know-alls that we sometimes imagine we are, we too, need to post questions.

This forum is a great place to discuss things with people who know what's going on. Take advantage of that experience and the helpful people on here.

PS. Not all vets know what to do with a sick frog, but they will know what to do with a sick cat and dog. They are the trained experts in their fields- that's why they went to school for eight long years. Please don't think that just because your frog couldn't be saved, all vets are terrible and don't know what do to. My dad loves cows and would do everything he could to save one, and I suspect other vets would do the same.


RyanD
www.ezekiel3714.blogspot.com
willydigger
Member
213 posts
213 posts

# Posted: 6 Jan 2007 02:13


If a vet is experienced with a frog or a snake or has a very high interest in herps- then i would place the life of my herps in his/her hands.

I did this by using a vet listed on the site. My frogs died as a result. Then I came here and discovered an alternative that worked for some people. I can rationalize everyone's position on the subject, but my experience has shown me that vet's are not necessarily the best bet when it comes to frogs. I may not know much about frogs or frog health, but I do know ivermectin kills RETF's. Reading this forum may not provide you with answers, but it might arm you with questions to ask the vet.


RETF 1.0.3
Jennifer
Member
1522 posts
1522 posts

# Posted: 6 Jan 2007 02:22


Just to respond to your post Ryan ... no offense taken and I don't mean to offend you either, just to clarify ...

With regard to vets motivation: I have no doubt that the original impetus to be a vet is to help animals.

But running a successful business based on disease mostly counts on superficial (involving little observation), easy-to-communicate knowledge which people otherwise have no access to -- which is not what happens in today's world where people have access to the internet.

With regard to the meds: My point was that for some people, it is easier to pick a name out of the phone book and call it and even take a trip to a vet who will then tell you explicitly how to get medications -- than it is to go online and find out both what medications you need and how to get those animal medications. I didn't mean that once you figure out what medications you need, it is easy to go to the vet, etc.

Re: know-it-alls: you can write that people on this forum don't know everything as a group and that people will disagree on here .. but really, that is true of all groups including vets. As far as peoples' needing to ask questions: it's always a good idea when you don't know any given fact. I think the "know-it-alls" on here ask plenty of questions.

Particularly though for something specialized like frog care, a group of online people can be better than going to see one "expert." (It's the same for rare human diseases--you hear that people find out more online and from specialized groups than they do from going to doctor after doctor).

Regarding whether vets are terrible and Fido's worth relative to that of a frog:

You wrote:

"Please don't think that just because your frog couldn't be saved, all vets are terrible and don't know what do to."

But then you wrote something about $200-$1,000 Fido and his worth relative to that of a froggie -- and that Fido or some other furry animal was therefore more productive or profitable to think about.

As a consumer, I can assure you, I don't care about the vet's livelihood. I care about my pet. I am not a benefactor for the vet's education but rather the person my frog depends on to survive.

Some of these frogs are absolutely adorable and seem to have intelligence. I can't say that I have respect for vets as a group just because they are vets. Hearing about a doctor -- who really is supposed to know better -- giving a healthy frog a medication which kills him isn't much different from hearing about a boy in the woods doing some cruel act to a frog to me inasmuch as the frog would have been better off left completely alone.

Basically, both for a group like this and for a vet, more information exchange is always better. But whereas this group will tell you to consult the vet, the vet won't tell you to look online -- which can sometimes reveal the correct course of treatment.

I think that this particular doctor really did not know what to do and in fact, should have asked Fred whether he had researched the problem online and what he had found out (or even done his own online research).

The people on this site are far humbler than a vet who knows nothing (they will actually refer people to a vet in the hope that he will have some specialized knowledge even where they know a fair amount about the problem). And I think moreover that this kind of arrogance might be typical of vets.

As far as cows ... yuck. They're big and ugly. And my frog talks to me when I talk to him. Now what cow does that?


FrogPrincess
willydigger
Member
213 posts
213 posts

# Posted: 6 Jan 2007 02:29


As far as cows ... yuck. They're big and ugly. And my frog talks to me when I talk to him. Now what cow does that?

Man they taste good though.


RETF 1.0.3
RyanD
Member
155 posts
155 posts

# Posted: 6 Jan 2007 03:21


Jennifer-I am glad my post went well w/ you, I was a little worried that you'd take offense

I meant the money part like this: If a vet is interested in amphibians- he *should* be able to help you and will honestly try. If he/she has an interest in herp meds, he should know a little on how to treat them. This is the kind of vet you should go to.

There are people out there who don't care whether a frog lives or dies- obviously nobody here since its our hobby. If a vet is one of those people, then yes, they will see the frog as money. For this person, the will think more about the well-being of a clients cat than a frog. Although they should and do have concern for all life, there thinking is that a cat is of more importance than a frog.

The vet that treated...er killed the RETFs may not have the same concern for amphibian life that we on this forum share.

As far as vet arrogance... yeah. I have meet a vet that was... much less than nice, to keep it clean. Some may think that they need to live up to the credit people automatically give them just for having a four-year degree, and I think that probably holds true for all advanced degrees, human doctors included. There will always be good vets and some bad vets, finding a really great one may be difficult.

Finding vets on the web- I would try to find some people that have had experience with him/her. You don't know for certain whether they actually have experience or if they are any good.

And yeah... steaks are great...


RyanD
www.ezekiel3714.blogspot.com
Munnchkin
Member
26 posts
26 posts

# Posted: 16 Feb 2007 17:09


Can someone help me??? My tadpoles are deformed in the tail and i dont know whats wrong with them will someone please help me

daystorm
Member
412 posts
412 posts

# Posted: 16 Feb 2007 18:00


You are definitely posting that question in the wrong place Munnchkin. Try starting a thread in the help part or something. THis is a thread to explain to people that they shouldn't only rely on one source of information and do their research before blindly accepting anyone's idea of proper treatment. (I'm one of the lucky ones, there is one vet in town that does treat herps and knows pretty much what she's doing. Wouldn't trust her with my future darts or my mantellas, but the white's are big enough for the trip.)


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Munnchkin
Member
26 posts
26 posts

# Posted: 16 Feb 2007 22:43


ok thank you anyways

Charlie
Moderator
5432 posts
5432 posts

# Posted: 17 Feb 2007 05:08


Thank you for clearing that up daystorm


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