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Heather
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# Posted: 29 Dec 2004 06:48


frogfreaks
You may want to check with your state and see if it is legal to release the Bull Frog. I know that it isn't in the state of FL.

Your fire bellies need more space, a 20 long would be better. The 10 gallon for 4 of them is a bit small.

And the two White's will also need a larger enclosure. A basic guide to go by is 20 gallons for 1 then 10 gallons for each additional frog. Though, personally I would go bigger because they are a larger species. I wouldn't put two adult White's in anything smaller than a 30 tall.


* Heather *

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frogfreaks
Member
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316 posts

# Posted: 29 Dec 2004 07:09




Thank you, Heather!

In IL, we will check about the release of the bull frog in an idyllic spot we know. We certainly don't want to coop him up with us. We acquired him from an aquatic plant tank at Petco.

Although they seem content, a 20 for the fire bellies would be very nice.

We plan to get a 30 tall for our White's when they grow larger. They are still very small at this point.

Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 29 Dec 2004 07:26


frogfreaks I believe you can just call the state department of natural resources and ask them about the bull frog.

Bull Frogs aren't native to IL (though they are found there) and are an invasive species. They can get very larg, adapt quite well and do quite a number on natvies species.

If the state does not permit the release, perhaps you can ask around at the local schools and see if any of the teachers would like it for their classroom. That would be a better choice mainly because a captive raised frog may not even survive in the wild. Being kept in captivity takes away a bit of their hunting skills and also keeps them from being exposed to parasites and such that they would encounter in the wild... there for they lack the natural immunity.

Just a few things to keep in mind.

Oh and BTW... Welcome to The Frog!


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
Anonymous


# Posted: 29 Dec 2004 21:43


could ihave a semi aquatic frog with tropical fish in a 20-30 gallon tank
Anonymous


# Posted: 29 Dec 2004 21:48


like a leopard frog
Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
2241 posts

# Posted: 29 Dec 2004 22:02


No. There is no semi-aquatic frog that is suitable for a 20 to 30 gallon fish tank.


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Anonymous


# Posted: 29 Dec 2004 22:12


how if i make it a paludarium
Anonymous


# Posted: 29 Dec 2004 22:17


it is just that iwould like to set up a paludarium with a frog that would make use of both land and water areas and not eat and poison my fish
icould only come up with fire belly toads but i thought that the toxins they produce would poison the fish
frogfreaks
Member
316 posts
316 posts

# Posted: 30 Dec 2004 04:38


Our feeder guppies and fire bellies have been very compatible for 6 months. The guppies even keep having babies. We originally got the guppies for the frogs to snack on, but barely any of them have been eaten. We have the fish and 4 FBs in a 10-gal aqua-terrarium for now. We will probably expand to a 20 gallon.

frogfreaks
Member
316 posts
316 posts

# Posted: 30 Dec 2004 04:42


Heather, thank you for the welcome.

OK, maybe we will not release "Muffin," our bull frog (tadpole) when he gets big.

I hate to think of what size enclosure he will need, and what sort of critters we will have to feed him!

Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 30 Dec 2004 04:57


You'll need a pretty good sized enclosure, but you can slowly upgrade as he/she grows. Don't get alarmed if it seems to stay a tadpole forever LOL Bullies can take up to 2 years to morph.

As for feeding... crickets and earthworms.

There are a few people here who keep or have kept bullfrogs so when it does morrph, feel free to ask any questions you may have Someone here will have an answer.


* Heather *

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Anonymous


# Posted: 30 Dec 2004 11:38


if the water was to be filtered would that stop the poison of the fire belly toad from harming the fish
frogfreaks
Member
316 posts
316 posts

# Posted: 31 Dec 2004 06:30


Dear Anonymous,

Like I said, my fbs and feeder guppies are great together. Their water is filtered, but I don't think a filter dissipates the toxins much. It depends on the kind of fish you put in with the frogs, I guess. Also, fire bellies that are "farm raised" for pet shops are not as toxic as their wild counterparts, since they don't ingest what they normally would in their natural environment.

frogopolis
Member
322 posts
322 posts

# Posted: 31 Dec 2004 08:43


My fbt are in with some guppies to and a sucker fish. All doing very well. The 10 gallon tank is only filled about 1/3 of the way and I am running a low water filer no charcole.

Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 1 Jan 2005 07:18


The whole not poisonous thing is captivity is kind of interesting. Just because dart frogs loose their toxicity, never assume a unrelated animal will unless you have proof. For instance, I remember a study where the extrememly toxic western US newts seemed to increase how toxic they were while in captivity.

Do FBTs loose their toxicity?

frogfreaks
Member
316 posts
316 posts

# Posted: 1 Jan 2005 07:43


Oops! Thank you, Brian. Yes, I had read this about dart frogs, not specifically firebellies. I failed to find more information just now, it is best to assume the fbs are toxic - but not to our feeder guppies.

Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 1 Jan 2005 11:38


I've never heard of firebelied toads being farm raised either, they are simply plucked from the rice fields in china and shipped over here in mass quantities. And captive bred ones still have their toxins, this is something they produce themselves not like the way dart frogs get their toxins.


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lostriver
Member
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# Posted: 2 Jan 2005 01:35


That's right, Brian and Josh. Darts get their toxins from their specific rainforest environments, such as certain tropical ants they eat and perhaps other environmental chemicals that are lacking as captives. They lose their toxins in captivity. Other frogs and toads that don't rely on food and other chemical sources to produce toxins don't do this and retain their toxins.


Lee
desert_toad
Member
1 posts
1 posts

# Posted: 12 Jan 2005 00:07


I just came home to discover that my WTF had eaten my Green Anole. I have only had my frog for 2 months now and added the Anole about 2 weeks ago out of blind stupidity. I have read all that I could on both animals and thought I had an okay mix, but unfortunately for the GA I missed this posting. I feel awful about his demise and wish to never be the cause of another accident due to lack of knowledge.
Almost $1000 bucks and untold hours in setup are no match for not knowing what you are doing. It's a fact!

Whitney
Moderator
2241 posts
2241 posts

# Posted: 12 Jan 2005 03:35 · Edited by: Whitney


Thank you for sharing that, desert_toad. Unfortunately the outcome is generally more along the lines of what has happened to you and countless others than the odd "successful" tank.
And a huge WELCOME to thefrog forum! Kick your shoes off and make yourself at home! I look forward to hearing more from you.


<-- Say, can I have some of your purple berries? <--
lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 12 Jan 2005 06:04


Good post for our fodder of why not to mix.


Lee
frogface
Member
3 posts
3 posts

# Posted: 21 Feb 2005 03:38


WHen I got my frogs I boughta 40 gal. and was going to add a glass divider and have a WTF on one side then a Pacman on the other. Once I started thinking about it I didn't do it. I figure even if the couldn't get to each other they could still smell? each other and stress out. So I bought two sep. tanks and yes they are by each other in the room but there is some space and I have a divider between them. I didn't have the divider at first and I kid you not they would just sit and stare at each other. But back to the topic. COMMON SENCE IS ESSENTIAL in having any animals!!!!!!!!!!!!

lostriver
Member
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1737 posts

# Posted: 22 Feb 2005 01:33


Welcome frogface to the forum of common sense.


Lee
Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 22 Feb 2005 01:56


i got asked this question, "can you keep RETFs and Clowns in the same tank." aren't clowns smaller than RETFs? i know nothing about clowns but i do know that RETFs will eat anything that will fit in their mouths. even so i told him that it would create negative competition for food, problems with territorial issues etc.


Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

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Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 23 Feb 2005 17:37


I am adding a section from another thread mainly because I think that it is the perfect example of poor judgment and lack of the forementioned "common sense".

Thank you Josh


amazinglyricist posts in the thread http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread&forum=5&topic=5757

it's people like Ed Kowalski, that just because he's the lead keeper at the Philiadelphia zoo people think he's right, here's a quote from him...
The highest density I have kept at work, let me think on it, I have kept several species at very high densities, probably the highest density at the moment is either a breeding group of RETFs in a 20 H (13 animals) or the group of A. zeteki on exhibit (I'll need to figure out the space in that exhibit as it has several tiers).
Can anyone picture 13 full grown red-eyes in a 20 gallon high? They wouldn't be able to move without running into each other, and then there's trying to feed them, tehy'll end up tearing each other apart duing feeding.

A disclaimer from me, I would not try to use the cramped conditions EdK suggests, simply being the head keeper at a zoo does not mean you know what you are doing. And I would never consider mixing the species he suggests, it would be an act of murder to the animals involved regardless of what he says.

Here's the links to his insanity on dendroboard that he calls multi species exhibits


http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4532

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4410&highlight=mixin g]http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4410&highlight=m


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
lostriver
Member
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1737 posts

# Posted: 24 Feb 2005 03:29 · Edited by: lostriver


I will defend EdK just a bit here, but not to the point that new hobbyists should regard his experiences and advice as applicable to the amateur hobbyist as far as mixing goes. He truly does know his stuff apparently, and Yeager definitely does, because he has worked with frogs in the rainforests, and is becoming a true scientist. Ed knows a hell of a lot about frog diseases, parasites, and has probably shoveled a lot of elephant grunt in his 15 years of experience with the zoo. He claims 6 years of experience under Kevin Wright, a co-author of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry. That's impressive.

My only argument with Ed would be the difference between mixing in a zoo display to impress the public, and keeping frogs safe and sound as a hobby, or for our personal pleasure.

But what works in a zoo with many keepers to monitor everything that goes on, and facilities to replace any mistakes or dead frogs from behind the scenes to keep up temporary displays to impress the public, may not work for us as "ignorant" hobbyists. We just don't have these faculties. (Ed once told my mother-in-law that they do not need to replace any dead frogs in their mixed displays and there is not such thing as a behind the scene unmixed population as a reserve for relplacement. They all survive in their mixed display case for long periods of time? I just don't think so, but have no proof that it's not possible, excpet for common sense. The idea of each animal that is mixed together keeping to its own level in a 20 gallon tank or even a 180 gallon, is absurd. Frogs and the other amphibians and reptiles in a rainforest have levels in meters, not inches that they inhabit in a vivarium. A terrestrial frog may go up well above what we can provide in a small environment, and still think this is terrestrial enough for them. All of my darts from the largest to smallest, use every inch of their space in generous hobby tanks, none below 30 gallons, and the highest at 135. The so-called aboreal frogs use the ground as much as the higher reaches. They simply owne it all, whether they are considered arboreal or terrestrial. I currenty have 4 tiny (barely 1/2 inch) adult Dendrobate reticulatus in a 30 gallon tank with bromeliads, water fall, and space galore, and the little suckers are fighting about territory. They'd fit on your little finger nail, but they sure hate to share.


Lee
Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 24 Feb 2005 03:51


I simply don't like the idea of taking one persons word for it, especially when everyone else says the same thing that is opposite of what that person is saying. He says that he has to mix to keep the public entertained in case they don't see the animal in a few seconds, I say just make less elaborate enclosures so the animal can be seen without having to mix.


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Brian
Member
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# Posted: 24 Feb 2005 07:02


A lot of this is my opinion.

Something else to keep in mind is that zoos often can take their animals to vets on zoo grounds immeadately. If I had a "free" vet within 10 minutes I firmly feel I'd have never lost an animal to disease. I'd also be about $500 bucks richer.

This lower part applies only to pet reptiles and amphibians most people can legally own. Not institution only stuff.

Honestly on a simple knowing how to care for the animal basis I don't think zoos are any better then an advanced hobbiest. I even think in some ways they are worse. For instance a zoo must usually display an animal and a zoo keeper must usually take care of many animals. A regular owner can make the animal's comfort the highest priority. Now days it might take some digging, but you can also get all the same info available to zoos. The areas where zoos still are better off is in the area of vet/meds/disease/space/and money.

Josh
Member
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# Posted: 24 Feb 2005 07:33


Yeah, and you notice they don't take chances with rare animals and animals in on loan? Why, because they're not replaceable.


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Brian
Member
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# Posted: 24 Feb 2005 08:39


See personally I think if your only goal is keeping the animals alive you can get away with a lot more mixing then a lot of people would like to admit. Possibily even long term. Still if your goal is provideing the highest level of care possible the number of mixes possible drops significantly.

My first tipoff that those that advocate mixing in the hobby don't always follow there own advice is that with rare and expensive species they advise no mixing while cheap animals are OK to mix. I've also seen a shift (like with tortoises)when animals become rarer people say don't mix species while before when they were very available the books say mixing is OK.

Also, my animals are so weird that mixing them would just confuse them more.

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