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talk to the frog / General / Mixing
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lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 25 Feb 2005 00:53


Brian and Josh-- You both have very valid points. I think there is also some posturing going on among the "big guys" in the field to show off their expertise by arguing with "lesser" people, and beating them up. I lurk on these forums, but never (or rarely) post on them, because there is no way to argue with anyone who can cite his own superior, long-time expertise against my sparse (about 5 years) experience with keeping frogs, no matter what else I happen to have some education and much more experience in, including microbiology.

I still think we should think we should all stick to our guns here however, especially when a new poster or beginner asks the questions about whether to mix. I usually qualify my answers with something like, "although it has been done successfully by some "experts" it's just not a good idea for a beginner to attempt, at least not until they get better acquainted with each individual specie they keep." I honestly don't know why anyone would really want to mix if their priority is keeping healthy, happy animals. I'm not against also making them into attractive decorative additions to a house, but this can still be done without mixing.

It would be nice if we could entice an amphibian veterinarian onto our forum that did not have some other kind of agenda going on for promoting himself. I doubt this is possible.


Lee
Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 25 Feb 2005 01:20


Actually I wouldn't mind if the vet promoted themself, as long as they gave the correct advice. Maybe someone happens to know a good vet who would volunteer some of their time on here, maybe 2 hours a week or something like that.


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Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 25 Feb 2005 01:43


Well, I just e-mailed the ARAV with this, let's hope we have some visitors now....


Hello, I'm Josh Milliken, and I'm representing The Frog.org http://www.thefrog.org/ we help with advice on care, husbandry, breeding and anything else we can do for reptiles and amphibians, and I was wondering if there were any herp vets that would be willing to donate any amount of time they wish to disease related issues and medication related topics that those of us without knowledge of can't answer. They would also be able to direct the people that's animals need vet care to their office or to the closest ARAV member, maybe people come to the forums with sick and dying animals that could be treated by a specialist vet if it could be diagnosed soon enough. Thank you for your time in reading this, and I hope someone will consider help.

Sincerely,
Joshua J. Milliken
joshmilliken2001@yahoo.co


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Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 25 Feb 2005 06:47


Personally, I'd say some people on here have tanks that = to or greater then zoo quality. I'm being honest from what I've seen of some of your guys stuff versus the 6 or so zoos I've seen.

I think a lot of the "zoos and institutions are better" attitude is a hold over from the past where the zoos had a few decades experience keeping the animals or had access to them that the general public did not.

For better or worse massive importation as well as sharing of information has given private individuals the chance to own and the expirence to give an extremely high level of care that used to be only possible in zoos say 30 years ago.

Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 25 Feb 2005 07:09


I definately agree with you brian especially when you look at the tropical frogs tank that some people have anymore. A viv for a poison dart frog is usually more complex than 70% of what a zoo has.


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lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2005 01:14


Thanks, Josh. You did something about it instead of just talking like I've been doing. Let's hope we get someone. I don't mind self-promotion either, as long as it's sound advice--but some of it I've seen isn't.

I agree that most of the vivariums I've seen on this site and a lot on Kingsnake are actually better than most zoos. I know even my dart vivariums are a lot better than what I saw in the frog display at the New Orleans aquarium, which is otherwise a fantastic place, especially for marine fish. This may not be fair, because their display was apparently a temporary show.


Lee
Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 26 Feb 2005 04:20 · Edited by: Josh


Ok, I got a response from the ARAV, here it is

Greetings Josh -

I would be willing to help, as I am sure would other ARAV members - perhaps you could send/forward questions onto ARAV members that live in the area/region of the person posing the question - so perhaps that ARAV member may actually be able to help the animal(s) - my thoughts - take care - Dr. Byron de la Navarre, DVM.

Dr. Byron J.S. de la Navarre, DVM
President, Association of Reptilian & Amphibian Veterinarians (ARAV)
Past President, Chicago Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA)
Illinois State Liaison, Association of Avian Veterinarians (AAV)

Animal House of Chicago, Complete Veterinary Care
2752 West Lawrence Avenue
Chicago, Illinois. 60625, U.S.A.
Phone; (773) 878 - 8002
FAX # 773 * 878 * 0546
animalhouseofchicago.com



And I replied with...

Hello, Dr. Byron J.S. de la Navarre

Thank you for your reply Dr. Byron J.S. de la Navarre, DVM, Is there an email I or one of the moderators should send these questions to, to be looked over? We won't give out your email, but forward the question to you ourselves. Most of the people that come onto the forums have frogs that because of the little they paid for them never think to get veterinarian care, we send quite a few of them to the vets office, but many of them end up not being a member of the ARAV, we've been trying to get them to an ARAV member, and some do go, but if someone is willing to help on it we'll try to keep a list of the members officies up to refer people to.
Thank You
Josh Milliken

joshmilliken2001@yahoo.com


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Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 27 Feb 2005 04:50


Ok, here's an update.

Greetings Josh -

Let's wait & see who in the ARAV are interested - then perhaps we can give you a group of names from different regions - then you'all can evaluate the questions & send them onto ARAV members in the particular region - so we will keep you posted - take care, Byron.

Dr. Byron J.S. de la Navarre, DVM
President, Association of Reptilian & Amphibian Veterinarians (ARAV)
Past President, Chicago Veterinary Medical Association (CVMA)
Illinois State Liaison, Association of Avian Veterinarians (AAV)

Animal House of Chicago, Complete Veterinary Care
2752 West Lawrence Avenue
Chicago, Illinois. 60625, U.S.A.
Phone; (773) 878 - 8002
FAX # 773 * 878 * 0546
animalhouseofchicago.com

And my reply

Hello Dr. Byron J.S. de la Navarre, DVM

Thank you, we'll be waiting for any news on anyone
who would be willing to donate some time.

Thank You
Josh Milliken
joshmilliken2001@yahoo.com


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lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 27 Feb 2005 05:07


It's a start, Josh.

Like any ethical physician, a lot of veterinarians might be reluctant to give advice based only upon a conversation or mere history without a physical exam. We should perhaps come up with some sort of disclaimer that specifies what limitations they are working with to the best of their ability as "good samaritans," donating a bit of time to the cause.

Having the moderators or yourself elicit all of the pertinent information first would prevent them from being inundated with "help, my froggy is sick" with no other information posts by our ever-present Anonymous folk. We couldn't expect a veterinarian to read our daily posts searching for things he might help with, of course.

I think, thanks to you, we are on our way to some professional advice when we need it. Good Job.


Lee
Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 27 Feb 2005 05:27


this forum just keeps getting better and better!


Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

(superscheu at yahoo dot com)
Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 27 Feb 2005 06:16


Yes, thanks Lee that's what I was getting at with only me and the moderators having the email addresses. And yes we would have to have a disclaimer, even highly trained professionals are known to make mistakes, but it would also help people who truly can't get out if the frog isn't actually sick with something serious.
And hopefully several will be willing to donate some time here, even though they would get more business since they could refer them to themselves if the animal needs treatment.


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lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 27 Feb 2005 06:34


Even some lawyers do a bit of pro bono work. Besides, we'd all get an education from it.


Lee
Brian
Member
2274 posts
2274 posts

# Posted: 27 Feb 2005 09:22


The one thing that people should know though is that a vet visit can easiley cost a lot. A lot of people arn't prepared for it. I couldn't find a vet out here that charged less then $50 just to see the animal that saw a lot of herps.

Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 27 Feb 2005 15:15


Yeah, and most aren't willing to risk that extra money on that their frog "might" be sick when we say it, but if a vet says they might be sick please bring it in they'll usually listen.


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Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2005 17:16 · Edited by: Sh0e


We have some VERY cool Malaysian Flying Frogs. These are all adults. They are eating great and are very active. Get yours today for only $45 each plus shipping. We provide a Live Arrival for all orders. These animals male great enclosure mates with just about every species of Tree Frog. We accept Paypal!

is this true?



Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

(superscheu at yahoo dot com)
Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2005 17:26


Sh0e
No.... common sense would tell you that answer. All tree frog do not require the same care.


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 2 Mar 2005 17:29


i know, the only reason i looked at it is they're in Kansas City, but when i read that i didn't think that was right, man what some people will say to turn a buck. . .


Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

(superscheu at yahoo dot com)
frogboy
Member
111 posts
111 posts

# Posted: 4 Mar 2005 22:40


Would it be alright to put 2 D. auratus hawaiian and 2 D. auratus blue in a 20 gallon tank together of mostly land? They're both pairs so i doubt that they'd hybridize and also how often do dendrobates auratus often breed? I've had 1 of the pairs for 4 months now and they haven't.

Devin Edmonds
Member
613 posts
613 posts

# Posted: 4 Mar 2005 22:51


Chances are the auratus would probably live fine together. They are the same species of frog, just different color variants. The problem with keeping the two morphs together is an ethical one. The general consensus among those that keep dart frogs is that we do not want to breed different morphs together. It would be very disapointing to watch dart frogs go the way of leopard geckos, corn snakes or other designer reptiles. Although your goal might be to keep them, not breed the two morphs, if they are kept together chances are they will breed. As far as I know, D. auratus don't discriminate against other color types when it comes to breeding. Do not house the frogs together, instead buy a new tank. Ten gallon aquariums run around $8 and with two seperate tanks there will be no risk of crossing the two colors of auratus.

Devin Edmonds
www.amphibiancare.com

Josh
Member
3432 posts3432 posts
# Posted: 4 Mar 2005 22:55


I very much agree with Devin. And the reason your frogs haven't bred yet is they may not be mature enough to. Give them a few more months and if you have a male and female they probobly will, if they don't you probobly have either 2 males or 2 females.


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lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 5 Mar 2005 22:11


I agree with Devin also. Conscientious breeders don't want to have morph crosses in the trade. Once mixed, one can't necessarily tell by color if the offspring are from a cross or pure line of that color. There is no reason that the two different mophs wouldn't get along together in a group. However you won't be able to control which will cross with which or be sure the original pairs will continue to prefer each other. They are pretty fickle, and a lot depends upon which males or females are dominant.


Lee
Anonymous


# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 02:33


I am going to make a frog tank soon. I wanted to put Whites or treefogs into it until I saw a Pacman frog at Petco. Do they get along? Would it be a good idea to put these species together?
Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 03:03 · Edited by: Heather


NO THEY DO NOT GET ALONG

Take the time and read the thread please.

It is never a good idea to mix species

If you simply look up the care for both species of frogs you will see why you can not mix them

Do a little homework.. take the time and learn something about the creatures you want to hold hostage


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 03:21


Now, don't get cranky, Heather.
It's not good for your stress factors. I like the "hold hostage" part.


Lee
Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 03:29


warning to anonymous

pacman's don't do much but sit there and eat. they are fun to watch when they do eat, and you can feed them some cool stuff, but they are ambush predetors so they will sit there and wait until food walks infront of them. i love them though, but i like tree frogs, so if you want get a 20 gall and get 1 whites tree frog, and get a 10 gal and get 1 pacman frog, best of both worlds and best for your froggies


Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

(superscheu at yahoo dot com)
Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 03:55


*deep breath* I'm ok... just got a lil worked up there.

To me... hostage is taking something and forcing it to be kept... it isn't a hostage if you keep it in the very best of conditions and do everything possible to ensure a healthy enviroment that meets the needs of that creature.


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 04:45


lol, i think every needs to relax a bit, i'm stressed because i have midterms and essays over parental influences in comparative novels due in 11 hours. what's everyone elses excuses? i'm going to miss the days when my biggest stress was making sure my pages were double spaced and my homework was done in time


Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

(superscheu at yahoo dot com)
Heather
Moderator
7561 posts
7561 posts

# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 04:47


I'm gonna take the PMS plea


* Heather *

1.1.0 Dendrobate Azureus
lostriver
Member
1737 posts
1737 posts

# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 04:48


You are right, Heather,-- that's exactly what we all do when we keep frogs or any other animal; they are at our mercy, are virtual hostages without anyone to pay a ransom. We are playing God with this hobby, just because we get a kick out of it. So we're here to share what we know or have experienced, find out what we don't know from others, and figure out the best way of keeping them as happy and healthy as possible. But sometimes it takes more patience than we've got when when after a long discussion, someone anonymously comes on and asks the first question we've already been discussing FOREVER on an 11 page thread, all over again, obvously without having read a bit of the thread. aaaaAAAAHHHaaH!!!

I think a particular problem is that sometimes a new person coming here wants a personal answer, a special interest in themselves, their immediate concerns, but doesn't want to join with an identity due to all the computer spy and spam stuff, which they don't know this forum is totally free from. I have visited sites for information that have not been free from Spyware and Spam, so I share their concerns about giving anything but an anonymous identity.

It's like visiting a physician who answers all your questions and treats you like the only individual he is concerned with, and doesn't expect you to have done any research on your symptoms ahead of time. Does this make any sense?


Lee
Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 8 Mar 2005 04:49


lol, girls are such cheaters, sheesh


Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

(superscheu at yahoo dot com)
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