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talk to the frog / General / Chytrid...the fungus among us
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sirin
Member
1 posts
1 posts

# Posted: 12 Dec 2008 11:21 · Edited by: sirin


What are nitrile gloves? see http://www.nitrileglovesbulk.com

AliB
Member
117 posts
117 posts

# Posted: 19 Feb 2009 01:50


do you think there is any way of turning all of this information into a school biology project?? and if so can u help me out a bit?

Stuart Halliday
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 12 May 2009 20:47 · Edited by: Stuart Halliday


Can I bring everyone's attention of a new treatment of CF that seems to work?

Application of the bacteria Janthinobacterium lividum?

See THIS URL

Links to papers, etc.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19322245
http://www.springerlink.com/content/l077r522048602 57/
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/59/7/2214.pdf
Seemingly it common in American soil.

Should be possible to cultivate this bacterium like we do with SafeStart and 'One and Only' and sell it to amphibian owners?

I came across a paper (see page 9) for students on growing it...
http://www.ncbe.reading.ac.uk/NCBE/PROTOCOLS/PDF/F ermSG.pdf


Stuart Halliday
The Aquarium Wiki Encyclopaedia
frog nut
Member
6 posts
6 posts

# Posted: 8 Sep 2009 04:24


i have a question for steve, could I use this soultion for my pacific tree frogs? and should I house them separarately during treatment


kat rety
lestat
Member
1376 posts
1376 posts

# Posted: 8 Sep 2009 06:25


Yes, you can use it for the Pacific Tree Frogs. If you're treating all of them, they can stay together.



"This is a forum, not a cell phone."
Tony C
Member
797 posts
797 posts

# Posted: 8 Sep 2009 08:32


This has been an interesting read, and I'm thinking about treating my collection now. My Pacifics and Firebellies are wild caught, and I have reason to suspect that my Red Eyes and Tiger Legs may be as well even though they were sold to me as captive bred. How reliable is the skin sloughing during treatment as a means of diagnosis? I would like to avoid tearing apart my terraria if possible, can I safely assume that my frogs are negative if they don't slough their skin, or should I just bite the bullet and start breaking down my tanks? I haven't had any recent health problems, but I did lose several Pacifics and a group of four D. auratus last year, and two of my original four Xanthic Red Eyes died, I thought at the time it was spindly leg, mbd, or something of that nature, but maybe not...

Amphibians
Member
605 posts
605 posts

# Posted: 8 Sep 2009 16:57


Tony, to loose that much in a year would make me consider tearing down and cleaning everything.


Glass Frogs
Tony C
Member
797 posts
797 posts

# Posted: 8 Sep 2009 21:50


I think you're right. The group of auratus is what has me the most concerned, at the time I thought they died from eating ants that may have consumed ant poison, but one of the symptoms they presented was a dulling of the skin, which makes me think it may have been chytrid after all. I'm not really surprised at the number of losses I had considering the number of wild caught animals I've dealt with, but I think I will suck it up and start treating and sterilizing just in case.

herps4life007
Member
10 posts
10 posts

# Posted: 8 Sep 2009 22:58


this sucks chitrid fungus i mean. how can we help with this?


tyler
Sh0e
Member
3185 posts
3185 posts

# Posted: 9 Sep 2009 00:53


Poisoned frogs and ones that are suffering from a toxin overload will often lose their color.


Shhhhhhoe
Don't blame the question when you're the stupid one.

(superscheu at yahoo dot com)
nicklovs
Member
1 posts
1 posts

# Posted: 26 Feb 2010 09:44


Hello! Very good forum! Its incredible and Perfect! Big Thanks!


Saginaw crossover
EricThomas
Member
378 posts
378 posts

# Posted: 5 May 2010 23:33


my pacman seems okay.. ive had him for 6 months and havent had problems out of him, should i be concerned?


1.1 Leopard Gecko's
1.1 ATF
2 FBT
1 Hamster
1 pacman
3 Mice
1 Beta and 3 Fancy tails
0.0.2 fire bellied toads
2 dwarf hamsters
Shonna
Member
2 posts
2 posts

# Posted: 1 Jul 2010 02:49


I believe my WTFs have Chytrid.

I had two, a blue phase named Hammy, and a standard named Huru. I used to have two Red Eyed Tree Frogs (named Echo and Hades), and I lost both of them. I'd gotten Echo and Hades first and Hammy shortly after. One day I decided to clean Hammy's vivarium and since he was so small at the time I saw no harm in putting him in with my two red eye's for a few hours. (of course I know better than to mix species like that now, but I'm pretty new to having frogs). I separated them as soon as I got Hammy's tank set back up.


I was heart broken to lose Echo and Hades. I thought that I'd lost them to Springs Disease; at the time I couldn't find anything that pointed elsewhere. Looking back I think they had Chytrid.

I thoroughly bleached and cleaned all of my plants and they even dried for weeks, as I was constructing a very nice custom paludarium with a filtered waterfall for my beloved blue phase WTF, when I acquired Huru. So mostly everything was new including the viv; and now, months later both of my WTF are exibiting symptoms of Chytrid.

I've been treating Hammy and Huru for Chytrid the past 6 days. I just lost Hammy this morning, he got into bad shape fast. Huru had just begun shedding and was still eating when I decided to treat him also as a precaution.

I've been doing the Lamisil Treatment. When they're not being treated they're in a different sterile plastic container with new damp paper towels for humidity and water with Exo-Terra Electrolyte and D3 supplement. After treatment, I also spray the tank with Exo-Terra humidifying spray to help ease the stress of all of the shedding.

What can I do to ease his sickness further? Am I messing anything up?
Huru is all I have left and I really don't want to lose him, but I also don't want him to suffer. Is there any symptoms that he'll exhibit if he's beyond saving? Are there any other treatments that I can do? Can I treat him longer if he doesn't begin to improve? Or *cries* should I begin looking for a vet that may be able to *cringes* euthanize my poor WTF. Like I said, I am terribly in love with Huru, and I don't want to lose him, but again, I don't want him to have to suffer on account of my own selfish desires.

AgalychnisCallidryas
Member
942 posts
942 posts

# Posted: 1 Jul 2010 12:06


There is no point of no return if he's not too sick yet IMO. I would keep treating him. 10 days should do it. It would be safe to extend it longer, but it is most likely unneccesary. From your description, he seems to be not showing symptoms yet. If you do the 10 day treatment, he should be fine. If not, consider that he does not have chytrid. Definitely finish the treatment, but remember, frogs DO shed. It is normal. My WTF does it 1-2 times per week (at least that I have evidence of.)


-Liam

3.0.0 Agalychnis callidryas
2.0.0 Litoria caerulea
1.1.0 Rhacodactylus ciliatus
Shonna
Member
2 posts
2 posts

# Posted: 1 Jul 2010 18:18


Ok. I know they shed, but I never noticed the shedding like he is now, though. It seems a little excessive, but it could be me being paranoid. I am very new to frogs, and I feel like a major failure losing 3 of 4 of them. What concerned me is that Huru is now sitting in the weird arched position like he's trying to keep his tummy from touching things, and he's turning away food which is very unusual for him. He was not doing that at the very beginning of treatment. I also understand that it could be the stress of the unusual environment he's been in for the past week or so. I'm going to search and see if I can find a vet that can swab for Chytrid... or at least make sure my Huru is okay. This whole thing has me crazy.

11LoveFrogs11
Member
5 posts
5 posts

# Posted: 22 Jul 2010 05:15


Thanks for putting this up, just one question (sorry if someone already posted this q). If a non-infected frog were to be treated would anything harmful happen? Would it prevent?
I dont own WTFs or anything but will keep this in mind if I do get them.


Newb frog raiser.. one FBT, any advice is greatly apprreciated!
Ed Kowalski
Member
244 posts
244 posts

# Posted: 22 Jul 2010 12:11


I'm going to search and see if I can find a vet that can swab for Chytrid...

You don't need a vet to swipe your frog. You can order the kit and do it yourself.

I didn't see it mentioned in my quick scan of this thread, but chytrid only kills the frog if the temperature in the enclosure is below 75 F. If you keep the temperature on average above 75 F you can reduce or prevent mortality until you get the frog's tested. It is an easy test you simply swab the drinking patch on the vental side of the belly of the frog, the feet and limbs and send it back to the tester. There are several labs in the USA that are now testing for chytrid and it is around $25 a swab. You don't really have to test every frog, just one frog in each enclosure will give you a good idea if it is in your collection.

At that point you can start treatment if it comes back positive. Prophylactic treatment which a lot of people try to do is very risky in the long term as you can drive resistent forms of the pathogen to develop... and we already have enough problems with chytrid without that occuring.

Ed

Carlton
Member
653 posts
653 posts

# Posted: 22 Jul 2010 16:56


I think one of the main concerns about testing BEFORE treatment is the very long wait for results. Maybe this has changed, but the last time I checked it could take months to get a chytrid test back and there was still a fairly high percentage of false negatives. If I have a frog with symptoms I can't wait months to get a test result back.

If you have a suspect frog, decide to treat, but it did not have chytrid the treatment shouldn't hurt it, but Ed is right....you want to make sure you do the entire treatment correctly (and clean all the terrarium stuff too) so we don't end up with resistant strains. One concern with treatment has come however. By killing off some organisms we may unintentionally upset the frog's natural balance of bacteria that normally live on the skin and you could end up with a secondary infection. There's some evidence of this in Megophrys nasuta.


"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax
Ed Kowalski
Member
244 posts
244 posts

# Posted: 22 Jul 2010 17:01


The wait isn't a problem if you keep the frogs above 75 F as a routine husbandry issue as they can be heavily infected and not show any signs.

The wait time for a result has come way down as in the past it was mainly due to waiting for a sufficient number of submissions to come in to make running the test cost in the affordable range. With many more submissions coming in, the turn around is quicker.

Actually the pcr test is very accurate. There were a lot of false negatives with regard to skin scrapings or biopsies but the rate of false negatives with pcr is very small even if the swabs have been sitting at room temp for weeks.

Ed

Carlton
Member
653 posts
653 posts

# Posted: 22 Jul 2010 20:41


That's good news about the wait time and accuracy. Things change.

The problem for some species will be the > 75 F temp. Some montane species won't tolerate this for very long which ironically may bring other health issues to light from stress. My Megophrys would be very hyper and agitated at anything over 72 F.


"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax
Ed Kowalski
Member
244 posts
244 posts

# Posted: 23 Jul 2010 02:21


I have worked with a lot of montane (and temperate) species for a long time including M. montana and in my experience many people over estimate the sensitivity of a stable animal...( I kept M. montana routinely with temperatures in the mid to upper 70s with no problems.. and the males did call...)
Some temperate zone species actually achieve high body temperatures in the wild via behaviors (such as body temperatures in Wyoming toads that exceed 100 F..).

There is is a lot of literature on acclimation and Tmax in amphibians.

Ed

roman
Member
6 posts
6 posts

# Posted: 23 Jul 2010 13:18


To add on to Ed's last post, I have a 10 gallon tank with gold mantellas where temps have on occassion reached well into the mid 80's for days at a time, something that should have been a killer based on all the literature I have seen. There were no ill affects and months later the frogs are still heathy and feeding agressively. Having said that I'm convinced that if they had experienced the same temps during the shipping the results would have probably been death from HSS.

Ed on a side note, I'm looking for an adult male yellow solomon eyelash frog, and clue of where I can track one down, I've already reached at to Pat Nabors

Ed Kowalski
Member
244 posts
244 posts

# Posted: 23 Jul 2010 15:25


Hi Roman,

The appear sporadically on the market. Pat Nabors is the main source. I don't know of anyone with any extras.

Ed

les
Member
1 posts
1 posts

# Posted: 6 Dec 2010 00:08


I've read so much about this Im starting to think I have the fungus let alone my frog.

Toadychan
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 21 Apr 2011 21:07


I read all of this thread and the other boards on this forum that I could find, but there are a couple of questions I still have before I start treating my frogs.

1. For diluting the bleach wash, do you just follow the instructions on the bleach bottle? Diluting the smallest amount listed, maybe? I don't know anything about using it, and it makes me nervous.

2. To clarify, I know you use the bleach to clean out the temporary holding daily; does it need to soak for a few minutes, or is just general cleaning okay? And I thought you were supposed to allow it to dry 24 hours, or no? If it does need time to dry, where do you keep the frog in the meantime? Finally, someone mentioned spraying some of the Lamisil soak (if I read correctly) in the holding after sanitizing with bleach. Does that stay in the holding, or do you rinse it off as well? Or is it not necessary to do this step at all?

3. If treating multiple frogs, should you wash your hands -- with the bleach solution, hand sanitizer, or is a good long soap washing enough? -- between each frog, or is it okay to handle one after the other, under the assumption that they all have it, and wash your hands when you're done everything? I honestly don't think my toad has chytrid (hoping toads are no different to frogs with this treatment) but she seems to have some sort of fungus that hopefully the Lamisil would help, and she was WC regardless, but I also have an African bullfrog I'd like to treat as well, though I don't believe he has it either. At least, neither of them have exhibited any classic chytrid symptoms.

Thanks, I appreciate any responses.

Carlton
Member
653 posts
653 posts

# Posted: 22 Apr 2011 20:19


Usually, a disinfecting wash with bleach means 1 part bleach to 10 parts of water. The bleach should kill bacteria and fungus. Rinse until you can't smell the bleach and use HOT water.

When cleaning out the temporary holding setup, remember that there should be very little in it (plastic or glass surfaces, no substrate, plants, moss, etc. The paper towels would be rinsed with HOT water, thoroughly dried so I could burn them) that will concentrate any fungus to the point that a daily clean won't be enough. I don't think you need to soak it. When I cleaned mine I first used the bleach:water solution and rinsed it thoroughly with HOT water. Heat kills chytrid...bleach kills chytrid. Shouldn't need to dry it as well.

I haven't used the Lamisil soak solution in the temp setup. But, I rinsed the frog itself very briefly so there was probably a small amount of residue from the Lamisil left on it.

I rinsed my hands with sanitizer, rinsed with HOT water between treating frogs just so I didn't happen to pass any chemicals, fungus, or other undetected infections to a frog that doesn't have them, or deposit it onto some terrarium item that doesn't happen to get sterilized later. Unless the frogs were housed together in the first place I always rinse my hands after handling each one anyway. You never know just what each could be carrying on its skin. Chytrid is just one possibility. As you said, there may be some other fungal problem present. Why take the chance of spreading it?


"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax
Toadychan
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 23 Apr 2011 22:26


Thanks a ton for the response. I really appreciate it, and will put it to good use.

Toadychan
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 17 May 2011 05:55


I've asked at both of our local pharmacies and both say that Lamisil is a prescription only product. I wonder if this was a recent change, and if so has it affected some or all of the US as well, or has it always been like this but only in Canada -- or if my tiny town pharmacies just don't stock it/aren't up to date. Any thoughts? If it's prescription only, how could we go about treating our frogs now?

I've placed an order for a bottle of the spray online and I hope all goes well, but I'm concerned that it won't.

Dispiacere
Member
25 posts
25 posts

# Posted: 12 Dec 2011 06:07


So i am going to be getting some grey tree frogs in about a month or so, and I plan on breeding them. I already own a pacman and have heard that they are notorious carriers of the fungus. I know by being careful I can prevent and cross contamination, but I would feel better knowing that he doesn't have it and I dont have to worry as much about him spreading it to the new frogs. How safe is the lamisil treatment to use on him if he doesn't have it?

Toadychan
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 12 Dec 2011 06:10


@Dispiacere: I'm fairly confident my frogs didn't actually have chytrid and they went through the treatment fine. As long as you do it properly they won't be harmed, whether they have the fungus or not.

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