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talk to the frog / General / Chytrid...the fungus among us
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Steven Busch
Member
1089 posts
1089 posts

# Posted: 24 Mar 2008 15:39


Chytrid flourishes between 45 to 65 degrees. It still does extremely well at 75 degrees. If you want to heat to the 100 degree range you need to keep it there for several days being sure everything in the tank is that hot. First remove the frogs.

Tests with some amphibians heating them and their water to the 90's and holding it there for 10 days does slow chytrid, but not always eliminating it as subsequent tests have found chytrid in some cases.

Porkchop48....an increase in feeding is one sign the herpetologist said is a strong indicator that the frogs had been infected with chytrid. Seeing a decrease in skin sloughs is another good sign.


Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope
count dewclaw
Member
76 posts
76 posts

# Posted: 7 May 2008 04:21 · Edited by: count dewclaw


Just a couple questions:

For plants soak in a 1/8 cup bleach to 1 gallon of water mixture for 10 minutes.
Is this a one time treatment for the plants, or do you need to treat the plants each day for ten days?

The herpetologist has successfully treated tadpoles using half the dosage.
Is this treatment also for 5 min/day for 10 days? Do you just make sure the water temp. is the same and then put the tadpoles into the solution?

Also, has this treatment been used on Vietnamese mossy frogs?

Thanks for all the great info!


LeAnn
Steven Busch
Member
1089 posts
1089 posts

# Posted: 7 May 2008 07:02


We did our mossy frogs and they are fine.

The plants one treatment is fine as the bleach kills it.

The tadpole treatment is the half dose in the water all the time. I will have to confirm the dosage amount again to be safe. Chytrid usually doesn't harm tadpoles but attaches to their mouth parts and does them harm when they are small froglets.


Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope
count dewclaw
Member
76 posts
76 posts

# Posted: 7 May 2008 12:17 · Edited by: count dewclaw


The tadpole treatment is the half dose in the water all the time. I will have to confirm the dosage amount again to be safe. Chytrid usually doesn't harm tadpoles but attaches to their mouth parts and does them harm when they are small froglets.

"all the time" while they are tadpoles until they come out of the water? Or for 10 days? How often do you need to change the water to keep the solution at the right concentration/activity? Also, if the adults have been treated and their enclosures have been treated/sterilized do you need to treat the tadpoles?

If Chytrid doesn't usually harm the tadpoles can they be treated more toward the end of their development (say a few weeks before they come out of the water)?

Thanks for your help.


LeAnn
Abrahm
Member
37 posts
37 posts

# Posted: 8 May 2008 15:31


Has any study of the treatment of anurans (or caudates) with Lamisil been published in a peer reviewed journal yet? You said you were working with a research team and I was wondering if and when they plan to publish this ad I would love to see their data. Do they have any preliminary data on side effects of the Lamisil treatment?

Just for confirmation, the Lamisil AT spray treatment lists these ingredients:
Active Ingredients
Terbinafine Hydrochloride 1%
Inactive Ingredients
Cetomacrogol; Ethanol; Propylene Glycol; Purified Water USP

Are these correct? Are your researchers studying the efficacy of terbinafine alone?

I hope the data proves that this is a good treatment.

Steven Busch
Member
1089 posts
1089 posts

# Posted: 8 May 2008 18:01 · Edited by: Steven Busch


The original test was of 3 species and tadpoles. They were tested, cured retested. So far no long term side effects.

We are personnally testing the terbinafine alone. It is not very water soluable so must be compounded and disolved in ethanol first. So far we have seen no long term side effects.

The chytrid cure is from private research in Oregon funded out of pocket so it takes more time. We personally have spent thousands ourselves testing and treating numerous species as the original research was on 3 species. We have treated nausta, reinwardti, nigropalmatus, pictus, signata, pardalis, aceras, hendricksonii, nigrops, promananus, whites, blackeyes, red eyes, bi-colors, sauvagii, tompoturnas, asper, fantasy, cornuta, cranwelli caecilians plus some others without trouble.

We currently have 5 species of 15 individuals per species being infected, tested, cured and re-tested, reinfected then cured again to verify the treatments. We are also pushing the terbinafine levels to check for toxic levels. Again this is being funded out of pocket with the help of a herpetologist.

It will be published in the journals after this round of testing is completed.


Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope
Abrahm
Member
37 posts
37 posts

# Posted: 8 May 2008 18:24


Truly exciting

I as a hobbyist truly appreciate your financial and time sacrifices working on this project. I hope you'll post what journal and other information when this finally does go to press.

Are you planning on doing any more research on tadpoles and larval amphibians?

I would be interested to hear about success treating the gilled adults that Peter mentioned earlier. Maybe Peter can report his own anecdotal experience?

count dewclaw
Member
76 posts
76 posts

# Posted: 11 May 2008 20:50


For plants soak in a 1/8 cup bleach to 1 gallon of water mixture for 10 minutes.

Do you need to treat the aquatic plants, such as anacharis? And does this bleach solution work on these plants, or does it kill these plants? Thanks.


LeAnn
jeanette
Member
452 posts
452 posts

# Posted: 12 May 2008 00:07


Do you need to treat the aquatic plants, such as anacharis? And does this bleach solution work on these plants, or does it kill these plants? Thanks.
thats a good point count.....
how would we treat live plants or would we have to remove them completely? as someone who is doing research into good hardy plants for a living vivarium i would be interested to know how to reduce the threat of introducing CF into a vivarium via plant life.
is there a way to tell if plants have the fungus on them that can be transfered to the amphibians ?


jen

Oh My.......... she didnt , did she?
count dewclaw
Member
76 posts
76 posts

# Posted: 14 May 2008 17:58


Steven, any answers to the questions in my last couple of posts? Thanks.


LeAnn
spawn
Member
2553 posts
2553 posts

# Posted: 14 May 2008 21:06


Bear in mind guys that Steven is not a definitive resource on the subject of Chytrid. There are a LOT of different strains of the fungus in the wild, and there is literature on the net for how and where it's found in the wild and the aquatic plant life.

ParpaKlahye
Member
34 posts
34 posts

# Posted: 18 May 2008 14:32


I'm thinking my White's may also have this fungus---however, he seems to be eating (no crickets in there), doesn't seem to be shedding skin but I have noticed that he stays on the floor of the terrarium most of the time and I have noticed some unusual behavior relating to his back legs. He doesn't really hop anymore--he kicks his legs out wildly but doesn't really move and seems very weak in terms of climbing, etc (I had him on my thumb and slowly increased the angle---he slid right off). I am seriously considering the Lamisil AT treatment. It seems like a massive undertaking (with the tank and live plants and soil and pieces of wood) but I can't sit idle watching this any longer. It's breaking my heart to see. I've kept WTFs before (over 10 years ago) and this was never something I saw. Is it best to tear the entire terrarium down and bleach everything that was in there? Toss the soil? Soak the gravel (that was on the bottom) in a bleach solution?

What is the bleach-to-water ratio for cleaning the tank and pieces of wood, etc?

I hope it's not too late---this is so incredibly sad and disappointing. I had no idea what I was getting myself into in getting back into the WTF terrarium hobby. I thought it would be fun for my boy--now I'm trying to play scientist.

I truly appreciate the information posted here. I plan to find the time (somehow----as my wife is about to have twins in addtion to my 4 year old). If there is an easier way forward I would love to know if it's feasible to spray down the existing cage and plants with the Lamisil AT solution instead of ripping the whole set up apart and bleaching and re-setting it up. It took me untold hours to set the terrarium up and again, my time is spread very thin---i.e. my other life.

One last thought---since my WTF is eating and I do not find skin in his water dish, is it a distinct possibility that he does NOT have chytrid??

I am thinking he does primarily because I now think MOST pet store bought WTFs already have the fungus (i.e. the 1st two WTFs I bought in March both died within 4 weeks in similar fashion). And his hind-leg issue seems consistent with everything I'm reading.

It may not be killing my frog yet---but I'm pretty sure if ignored his days are numbered.

So distressed...

jeanette
Member
452 posts
452 posts

# Posted: 18 May 2008 15:09


It may not be killing my frog yet---but I'm pretty sure if ignored his days are numbered.

So distressed...

oh my i hope your WTF is going to be ok


jen

Oh My.......... she didnt , did she?
Al_frog
Member
873 posts
873 posts

# Posted: 18 May 2008 16:08 · Edited by: Al_frog


You could take your frog to a Vet rather than stress yourself out with self diagnosis. However finding a Vet that can really help in many areas I'm sure is extremely difficult not to mention the expense. Should you go to a Vet I would be sure they see the info on Chytrid posted here since it may not be available otherwise. On the other hand, are you providing calcium and vitamin dusting with the feeding? I have seen some discussions in which calcium deficiency is blamed for the rear leg syndrome. Are your crickets gut loaded? One other approach is to get a small temporary tank and use a simple set up with paper towels, water bowl, etc, and treat the frog for Chytrid before placing it in this tank and see if it improves. Disinfect this tank with each treatment. It is wise to have a hospital tank around at all times in any case. If the Chytrid treatment does not show improvement then it must be something else. If the frog recovers then you must re-do the main tank obviously. Good Luck!

ParpaKlahye
Member
34 posts
34 posts

# Posted: 19 May 2008 06:00


Thanks Al, Jeanette--

Providing calcium-yes, about every 3rd or 4th feeding. I have never heard of rear leg syndrome. Can you elaborate on that? Did a google search--nothing. But my frog same something odd going on with the rear legs---a lot of unnecessary kicking (without moving). I thought it might just be the Eco-Earth stuck on his sides/belly---but now I'm thinking this could be a problem. He's just acting strange---sitting in the same spot a lot--not moving around. Looking a bit out of it. I may try the "hospitalization" approach and see what variables impact the situation. Thanks again--

BIG HYDRO
Member
3666 posts
3666 posts

# Posted: 19 May 2008 06:07


A vet can't tell if it has chytrid without sending it to a lab for testing. Which is something you can do yourself for alot less money.


The rear leg thing sounds like MBD. They will often lose the use of their hips and hind legs.



Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius, and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.
Carlton
Member
653 posts
653 posts

# Posted: 19 May 2008 18:51


How long has this frog been affected? Chytrid can progress pretty fast. If this frog has been isolated from all other amphibians for many months and was healthy and active, it may be something else that is more like a chronic nutritional problem. Has its color changed? Any open wounds that don't heal? Chytrid attacks the keratin layer in the skin, so skin symptoms are usually there. Also, animals with chytrid often lie still with rigid limbs, muscle tremors and can't right themselves if turned over (neurological signs).


"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax
ParpaKlahye
Member
34 posts
34 posts

# Posted: 19 May 2008 19:01


I have only had the frog for about a month now. Was very active at first. I was amazed at how well the frog hunted for crickets--jumping half-way across the cage for them. I have not witnessed my frog eating for weeks--though it appears that he's eating (I don't see many crickets, but anything is possible). His color has changed slightly since the day I brought him home. He was a very light, emerald green for the first few weeks and now has darkened slighlty--though I notice his head is usually a darker shade of green and his skin seems to lighten as you move from head to base of the spine. What are the most obvious signs of Chytrid? His inner thighs are reddish--but I'm assuming this is normal for a tree frog. Also--I have yet to notice this frog molting or shedding any skin whatsoever. Nothing. In fact, he hardly ever sits in his water dish. Not that I witness anyway...

Carlton
Member
653 posts
653 posts

# Posted: 19 May 2008 20:29


The change in color due to chytrid would be more like duller or muddier coloration as the skin reacts to the fungus by building extra keratin layers. Also skin lesions that don't heal...just get deeper and larger over time and shedding. This does sound more like a slowly developing deficiency or nutritional issue not chytrid. I haven't kept this species so someone else will have to help you there.


"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax
ParpaKlahye
Member
34 posts
34 posts

# Posted: 19 May 2008 20:49


Thanks for the info. So hard to tell--as I suppose his skin is a bit duller looking but it also tends to change back. The primary missing clue is the lack of shedding. I have seen nothing in the way of shedding. But I also don't see this frog as being very active and again tends to be a ground-dweller which shouldn't be the case.

jeanette
Member
452 posts
452 posts

# Posted: 19 May 2008 21:48


when you say his inner thighs are reddish, exactly what do you mean are they red as in a bright healthy colour or do they look sore?
are there any lesions or redness on its abdoman?
could it be redleg?


jen

Oh My.......... she didnt , did she?
ParpaKlahye
Member
34 posts
34 posts

# Posted: 20 May 2008 03:44


I would say a pink-red tint--consistent looking, no lesions. Still not much change in this guy--still sitting where he sat all day.

ParpaKlahye
Member
34 posts
34 posts

# Posted: 21 May 2008 19:19


Ok, new development here:

Now I do see a grey-ish streak/patch on my WTF's back. It doesn't really match the chytrid description as far as I can tell but this is some form of a skin issue. The skin is grey-purpleish and bit transluscent, much like what I see under his arms and hear his legs. Now this is streaking across his back. Is Neosporin ok to use for this type of skin issue? Or do I begin the chytrid Lamisil AT treatment? Please help!

BIG HYDRO
Member
3666 posts
3666 posts

# Posted: 21 May 2008 20:26


I wouldn't start using neosporin and whatnot until you know what the problem is. I treated all of my frogs for CF with amazing results. Better colors, and a nice increase in appetite that I wasn't really expecting.



Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius, and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.
kerokero
Member
619 posts
619 posts

# Posted: 22 May 2008 20:10


Neosporin is an anti-biotic and the lamisil treats some fungi... I wouldn't haphazardly start treating him with anything until you know what it is. I'd recomend getting some clear pics, start a new threat on here, and consult a good frog vet... I know Dr. Frye (fryebrothersfrogs.com) works a lot with frogs and with clear pics he may be able to help you determine what it is, or may be able to recomend a closer vet.

I only recomend neosporin for open wounds like lacerations and scrapes that are bleeding. The discoloration you're seeing could be an infection, but what is causing it is the issue... if you bought it as an adult, it could be one of the Indonesian imports that have a host of issues... parasites and infections.


Corey of the Little Brown Frogs
ParpaKlahye
Member
34 posts
34 posts

# Posted: 23 May 2008 02:17


That's what I'll do---this seems to be getting worse.



Stuart Halliday
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 27 Jun 2008 09:52


New BBC News item on Chytrid Fungus and Tree frogs


We over at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DwarfAfricanFrogs/ have been treating our American/Canada shop bought Dwarf African Frog (DAF) - Hymenochirus boettgeri with a heat treatment for over 3 months now. These frogs are getting infected with Chytrid Fungus (CF) when in the shops (probably from African Clawed Frog - Xenopus laevis). Thousands are dying within 3 months of being purchased.

So far it appears to be working. These aquatic frogs were tested before and afterwards with a CF DNA test. Before it was positive, afterwards it was negative. We're going to wait 3 months after the treatment and do a further DNA test to ensure its 100% gone.

The DAF comes from the Congo where 30-35C is a regular summer temperature. Placing the frogs for 14 days at 38C didn't harm them.


Stuart Halliday
The Aquarium Wiki Encyclopaedia
kristina meyers
Member
35 posts
35 posts

# Posted: 27 Jun 2008 22:01 · Edited by: kristina meyers


ok...so i thought dart frogs couldn't be cured from chytrid? am i wrong? if there is a cure...what is it and how to do it? i've read threw all the posts but there are so many of them? and also relating to frog species i dont own, as i only deal with dart frogs at the moment. does washing hands with antibacterial soap between tanks help chtrid not get in the other? if there is a cure...i'd like to know just in case someday. And if there are preventive measures.....what to do?

Darren
Member
13 posts
13 posts

# Posted: 28 Jun 2008 00:38


Hi guys some excellent info here!

Just to pass on some info I was told from the guys at Jersey Zoo at the Reptile & Amphibian Working Group meet at ZSL few weeks back, that Nitrile gloves apparently do not pick up chytrid. This info was passed to them from an institution (can't remember which) in Austrailia that is doing a lot of work with chytrid. Why or how they don't I don't know but was very interesting to know!

Stuart Halliday
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 28 Jun 2008 10:20


Hi Darren,
Sorry to be a pain but can you quote a published reference or a name? Anecdotal evidence is not a great starting point.

What are Nitrile gloves? - See here


Stuart Halliday
The Aquarium Wiki Encyclopaedia
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