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talk to the frog / General / Chytrid...the fungus among us
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Carlton
Member
653 posts
653 posts

# Posted: 19 Mar 2008 19:46


Incidentally, because I knew that chytrid had been reported in my region, I have never used leaves, wood, cobble, or feeders from the local area. My well water isn't treated but as the house water runs through a softener I didn't use it for the frogs anyway. All their water has been RO filtered. My first Megophrys arrived over 4 years ago and had no health issues until the rest of the group arrived last summer and went through standard quarantine.


"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax
Stuart Halliday
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 19 Mar 2008 19:55


I have another question as well. Since most of us have larger colelctions and may not get to all of the frogs in one day for treatment #1, would the chytrid be able to move from an older tank to the frogs that we are treating if it is present? Kinda of like hop and skip around to avoid the bleaching and lamisil?

CF only lives in water so can be easily passed via water droplets.

Any cleaning aids used on one enclosure, including *you* need to be cleaned or dried (CF dies if dried out or exposed to very hot water)

At 47C CF dies within 30 mins, at 60C it dies within 5 mins. So doesn't need to be boiling.

ref: this site pdf file.

I'd advise wearing plastic gloves and an apron and keeping any water droplet splashing down to minimum.

Afterwards place items in very hot water. No bleach required.


Stuart Halliday
The Aquarium Wiki Encyclopaedia
kerokero
Member
619 posts
619 posts

# Posted: 19 Mar 2008 20:06


Some of the animals I'll be doing this on will be WC that haven't been full treated anyways so I'll just use hot water and bleach together Looks like I'll have to get a thermometer to toss in the hot water bucket.

Very good information! Keep it coming...

Carlton - Interesting information, they really would have had to be carrying it since you got them (whether they got it in the wild or during their importation would be interesting to know but oh well). If it was chytrid I am a bit suprised they didn't succomb when you originally got them, but then again if they picked it up during their importation they probably weren't heavily infected enough to die from being stressed out until after you had them acclimated. Hmmm. Stuff to ponder.

But for all those who don't use R/O, something to keep in mind

I keep all my substrates/cage decor dry when stored, and tanks are dry and empty between uses... I feel pretty safe on that. So other than amphibians, food from outter sources (can it be transferred by food?) and my water, I think I'm ok... not that my frogs won't get dosed anyways.


Corey of the Little Brown Frogs
Carlton
Member
653 posts
653 posts

# Posted: 19 Mar 2008 21:34


I really suspect the "new arrivals" from last summer were carrying it, as my LTC male of 4 years was kept alone and not exposed to any other animals. I sterilized everything that went into his habitat. He never had any significant health issues until this winter. What I thought was a bite/skin tear from a large female could well have been a lesion instead. Of course I feel even worse about him now!

Other than this one male the only frogs I've gotten arrived last summer. All the new animals came through Steve or his importer source and were in beautiful condition...plump, hydrated, eating, colorful. Their habitat was built for them...nothing else had used it. They went through quarantine perfectly and were stable for about 8 months. 2 of the group died in late fall, but there was some group stress going on and neither had any obvious symptoms that lead to chytrid. Necropsies were inconclusive and I had checked them closely for the more typical chytrid lesions or behaviors. The lab wouldn't have tested for it. I tore the habitat down, sterilized it, and separated the frogs. They had been separated for at least 2 months. No problems. Then the chytrid thread came up here and I had just gotten Lamisil to treat my whole group when my red female came down with it. It's possible some other infection she picked up in my house or region could cause some of the same symptoms (a SE Asian frog wouldn't necessarily be resistant to our N American microbes etc), but again I would have expected it to show up much sooner. If it isn't chytrid whatever she has is responding to the Lamisil.


"True merit is like a river. The deeper it is the less noise it makes." Edward Frederick Halifax
Derek Benson
Member
3608 posts
3608 posts

# Posted: 19 Mar 2008 23:50


SO, say that you have the great stuff backgrounds with wood in them and cork bark. Could you spray this with the lamisil/water solution in order to kill any possible chytrid on them instead of completely tearing them down, with a knife or other object and restarting?

I postponed my treatments for another week so I can have treatment in another room while I sterilize all of my racks, equipment, etc. then move them to the clean area after their 10 days is up and into a nice set up. I should have these out of the area before the imports come in, then just treat them in the room and leave them in there while I watch them for a couple months.

Any more tips or ideas? This is jsut a preventative measure, as I have not experienced chytrid that I know of or seen any symptoms that have been described.


Derek Benson - Phyllomedusa/Hyperolius Enthusiast
spawn
Member
2553 posts
2553 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 02:18


I just got some lamisil cream (there was no spray). Is there a way to use this or dillute it? Should I just use my better judgment when applying it to the frogs' backs?

Steven Busch
Member
1089 posts
1089 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 02:55


Spawn NO you have to use the other the cream could/will kill the frogs.


Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope
MegophryidaeMan
Member
2535 posts
2535 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 05:46


Just a note to share a quick experience I had. I had a M. aceras almost dead, similar to Carlton's story, I started the treatment and she seems to be really turning around. I am very hopeful that this is going to help so many frogs in trouble.


spawn
Member
2553 posts
2553 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 07:20 · Edited by: spawn


Chad, you do one spray per 200 ml of water? Or how did you do yours? Do you plan for ten days?

Stuart Halliday
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 12:58


SO, say that you have the great stuff backgrounds with wood in them and cork bark. Could you spray this with the lamisil/water solution in order to kill any possible chytrid on them instead of completely tearing them down, with a knife or other object and restarting?

I'd be very surprised if the spray would get into the back or all the nooks and crannies of the bark. Can't you just heat the enclosure up?

Also don't you need to rinse the diluted cream off afterwards?


Stuart Halliday
The Aquarium Wiki Encyclopaedia
MegophryidaeMan
Member
2535 posts
2535 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 13:32


Yes, I did the 1 ml per 200 ml of water. I am planning on doing the treatment 5 minutes per day for 10 days and then the spraying of the enclosure too.


porkchop48
Member
1136 posts
1136 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 16:08


well today starts day one for my tiger legs and my clowns.
I bleach all containers before hand and their temp containers were bleached and rinsed also.
I am using critters keepers for the treatment. Plastic easy to bleach and sterilize and 190 oz containers with paper towels and a few leaves that will be pitched daily for the temp containers.
Wish me luck


I sometimes go to my own little world, but that's okay, they know me there
Steven Busch
Member
1089 posts
1089 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 16:12 · Edited by: Steven Busch


THIS NOT A CREAM!!!!!!!

The spray is a liquid 10 squirts of the pump bottle equals about 1 ML of the Lamisil AT mixed into 200 ML's of frog safe water.


Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope
porkchop48
Member
1136 posts
1136 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 16:49


I used the spray. 10 squirts per 200 ml of water.
The clowns did not like it at all but did slough off all kinds of skins.
the tiger legs seemed to enjoy hanging out in the water. I did end up using 16 oz deli cups like I raise my tadpole in for the Tiger legs and it worked better than the critters keepers did for the clowns.
i was able to get the coated really well by rolling the cup around without having to worry about water going every where.
Everything I used is now in the sink down stairs soaking in bleach water to be redone tomorrow
I did not know what to do with my hands though so I used gloves one set to put the clowns in one set to take them out. One set to put the tiger legs in and one to take them out
Was it ok to do it that way?


I sometimes go to my own little world, but that's okay, they know me there
Steven Busch
Member
1089 posts
1089 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 18:00


From what the herpetologist tells us the sloughing skin is a tell tail sign of chytrid. As treatments progress the sloughing should be less


Steve Busch
Yoncalla Frog
steve@yoncallafrog.com
www.buschcustomknives.blademakers.com
www.yoncallafrog.com .......soon I hope
rct
Member
2235 posts
2235 posts

# Posted: 20 Mar 2008 18:35


I'm picking up Lamisil today and will start with the Blue glider this weekend. This frog hasn't eaten for at least a month. He looks fine, calls constantly, but the no eating is a concern. He hasn't lost any weight, so we shall see what the treatment does for him.
Good luck everyone!

rosie


4 WTFs
1 Tiger-Legged Monkey TF
1 Ornate Pacman
3 Tomato Frogs
5 Leucs
2 Brazilian Yellowhead
2 Azureus
2 Orange Terribilis
2 Bicolor
marlon
Member
204 posts
204 posts

# Posted: 21 Mar 2008 13:43


Great information guys. marlon

porkchop48
Member
1136 posts
1136 posts

# Posted: 21 Mar 2008 16:50


Today was day number 2 for my guys.
Just out of curiousity why does it have to be 10 days?


I sometimes go to my own little world, but that's okay, they know me there
Mac
Member
15 posts
15 posts

# Posted: 21 Mar 2008 17:27 · Edited by: Mac


This 10 day treatment is the same time frame prescribed by herps using the prescription med sporanox (Itraconazole).

Chytrid is a different type of fungus from mold and mushrooms because of the way it reproduces with mobile zoospores that swim in water.

"Just out of curiousity why does it have to be 10 days?"

Because the early treatment days may only kill the fixed chytrid cells, leaving zoospore "eggs" that haven't released, I suspect the extended days of treatment are intended to kill those zoospores that survive the initial "parent" colonies.

~Mac

spawn
Member
2553 posts
2553 posts

# Posted: 21 Mar 2008 23:15


I have treated a female reinwardtii (3 inches) with the Lamisil treatment (yes, I bought the 40 ml spray bottle now) last night (100 ml/5 sprays -- which was more than enough). I soaked it for five minutes, making sure it passed over its back, unto the face, covering all the epidermis at some point or another. I then rinsed it off with my spray bottle. I let it dry for twenty minutes, then took it out to apply a triple antiobiotic (no pain killer) to the wounds on its face, snout, and back.

Do you think I should apply apply the antiobiotic every night? The reinwardtii doesn't move much, especially now since it's 72 degrees in the room (I won't warm the room up until Spring), so there's not much chance of the antiobiotic coming off in the water or from activity. It pretty much sleeps 20 hours a day. Is there a point where it becomes overkill with applying the antiobiotic? I'd like responses from people who have administered antiobiotics/neosporin before with results.

Peter Lembcke
Member
2 posts
2 posts

# Posted: 22 Mar 2008 05:56 · Edited by: Peter Lembcke


Does anyone know if this would work with neotenic salamanders? I'm very interested in this technique, and I've got a good opportunity to clean everything; I'll be moving to South Carolina in a few weeks and feel this would be a good chance to wipe out any possible fungus in my frogs and salamanders. Does anyone have any advice on how to treat these animals (Pseudobranchus, Siren, Necturus maculosus and punctatus, and axolotls)? You mentioned that the tadpoles were treated at half strength, was anything else changed for these animals, such as longer treatments?

Second, everyone mentions bleach as a cleaner, but I saw in the ASN Handbook a technique where you spray vinegar and hydrogen peroxide as a disinfectant; is this method effective at killing chytrid? I've been using this a lot lately, since it's so much safer than bleach (and I can't smell so I can't determine if I've rinsed everything properly); should I stop using this, or is this effective at killing fungus too?

Any help or advice would be appreciated.


http://www.amphibianaquatics.com
Doomboomlagoon
Member
36 posts
36 posts

# Posted: 23 Mar 2008 01:30


How might one get ahold of this medication

MegophryidaeMan
Member
2535 posts
2535 posts

# Posted: 23 Mar 2008 01:45


Lamasil AT is found in most drug stores in the spray form.


SweetKittyKat
Member
155 posts
155 posts

# Posted: 23 Mar 2008 01:46


The Lamisil AT can be found in pretty much any general store that would have over the counter drugs. It would be in the foot fungal section. =) I got mine at Walgreen's.


~Ali
"...And miles to go before I sleep..."
Mac
Member
15 posts
15 posts

# Posted: 23 Mar 2008 01:55


Lamisil AT spray :

http://www.cvs.com/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/detail?prodi d=139073&previousURI=/CVSApp/cvs/gateway/search?Ac tiveCat=499^Query=lamisil

memnoch1970
Member
1665 posts
1665 posts

# Posted: 23 Mar 2008 02:14


I'd be very surprised if the spray would get into the back or all the nooks and crannies of the bark. Can't you just heat the enclosure up?
how would you heat up a tank.... its not like you can put it in the oven. i guess you could poor scalding hot watewr over a background?


memnoch the devil
spawn
Member
2553 posts
2553 posts

# Posted: 23 Mar 2008 02:43 · Edited by: spawn


Dry it out with a blow dryer. Cychtrid lives in moist/watery areas. I'm actually going to do that to my substrates today (they've been bone dry for weeks). I'm taking out my wood pieces and sticking those in the oven too. Or if it's too big to fit (I've got a huge winding piece of cork in my toad tank), I'm just going to stick it in a bucket of bleach water for a half hour then scrub it with a brush and rinse it a few times.

And yes, using hot water is a double threat. Warmer water creates a better cleaning medium as well as kills more bacteria and microbes.

porkchop48
Member
1136 posts
1136 posts

# Posted: 23 Mar 2008 12:32


So instead of tearing down my whole tank I can dry it out and heat it up?
IS this correct


I sometimes go to my own little world, but that's okay, they know me there
Stuart Halliday
Member
32 posts
32 posts

# Posted: 24 Mar 2008 10:29


So instead of tearing down my whole tank I can dry it out and heat it up?
IS this correct


Just heat it up.
It's pretty easy to get several plastic bin bags and sellotape them together and so create a large bag for it. Then blow some hot air into it. As my previous link to the PDF file states, heat over 37C is all its takes to kill CF.

Just don't cook your frogs!


Stuart Halliday
The Aquarium Wiki Encyclopaedia
porkchop48
Member
1136 posts
1136 posts

# Posted: 24 Mar 2008 10:43


The frogs are out of the tank so I will nto cook them I swear.
Im going to take the substrate out but I hate to rip out the back ground. and Im doing to bleach the plants also.

Yesterday was day 4 for my clowns and my Tiger legs and I can say I see a big difference in them all. Mainly the tiger legs they were eating before but my goodness now they are pigs.
and I have noticed only a little bit of skin sloughly on the last treatment.


I sometimes go to my own little world, but that's okay, they know me there
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